No. I already said the notion was both unreasonable and unpractical. I’m not defending it, I’m just saying it isn’t racist.
Duke ran for the House the Senate and for Governor of Lousiana as a Republican. Can you name one single political view held by David Duke that could be fairly characterized as “leftist?” No you can’t. You can’t possibly, seriously be trying to hold up David Duke as a “leftist.” You’re generally not that intellectually dishonest.
Jesus Christ, you’re going back to the 1930’s to try to find a left wing antisemite? I rest my case.
Where have I said any such thing? Antisemitism, just like any other form of racial bigotry, is repulsive, period. Opposition to Israeli policy and actions against Palestinians does not equate to antisemitism any more than opposition to apartheid in South Africa equated to hating white people.
I have no idea what the hell you’re referring to.
I know, I know: forget it Jake, it’s Diotown.
(Or should that be Hymietown? Jackson’s No True Leftist though, right?)
Yep, thought so. Guy ran for government for more than a decade as a Democrat before switching parties, and thus he’s No True Leftist.
Ah, now we have the “Yes, you pointed out I was full of shit… but it was a while ago!” defense. Not quite as good as the No True Leftist, but useful I’m sure.
LHoD linked you to a page which showcases, rather prominently, a picture alleging that Britain’s pro-Israel lobby is a “kosher conspiracy”. You responded that it "just talks about people who use the phrase “new antisemitism” to smear critics of Israel. "
So rather obvioulsy you’ll excuse anti-Semitism and call it okay as long as it’s anti-Zionism too.
The Democrats in Lousiana weren’t liberals then, dude. It’s my home state, I know. The “Dixicrat” type Dems lasted a long time there. And he ran for every major office as a Republican. Name one liberal thing about Duke
No, we have a giant failure to be able support your own allegations, and a desperate, pathetic attempt to go back nearly a century to find a single leftist antisemite. Coughlin was born in the 1800’s, dude. Any relevance to modern politocs is nonexistent.
My biological father is Jewish. I have two Jewish half-brothers. Be careful where you swing that fucking race card.
I don’t know or give a fuck who in England called the the British pro-Israel lobby a “kosher conspiracy.” it’s mildly over the line, baiting and counter-productive. I don’t excuse it, but hardly an example of raving antisemitism, and if that’s the absolute best you can do, then I continue to rest my case.
I notice you haven’t tried to cite any current American examples. I wonder why that is. Could it possibly be because they don’t fucking exist?
That’s the exact opposite of the equivalent.
The equivalent would be telling the Americo-Liberians (descendents of freed slaves who settled in Liberia) to go back to the US.
Dio brings up a significant point. The ancestors of the founders of Israel had lived in Europe for 500 years or more, and made irreplaceable contributions to the economies, sciences, and overall culture of Europe. There was an incredible arrogance, and racism in denying these people their European homeland, and then creating an artificial homeland for them in a place they had a tenuous connection to from ancient times.
“We’d like to see you stay, but the Germans and Poles are just too racist to tolerate you in the place that you’ve lived for nearly an eon” may very well be true in some practical sense, but it’s a terrible argument in a moral sense.
Do you really think that there are no Leftist anti-Semites? None at all?
Does Louis Farrakhan fit the bill?
And your point that the Palestinians owed this homeland to “European Jews” (and Israel has a lot more people than European Jews) is made how? That Europeans harmed Jews, which certainly happened, means that Europeans owe the Jews, not Palestinians. I think in your effort to be sarcastic that your point is less than clear. Yes, Jews suffered horribly under Europeans. That is not cause to oppress Palestinians.
What the hell is remotely liberal about Farrakhan? He’s anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-welfare, anti-tax, a religious fanatic and a racist. What’s liberal about any of that? Name one liberal position held by Louis Farrakhan. He’s a raging right winger.
While we’re on the subject of Hymietown, I take it that those diamond merchants who has baby blood on their hands were Zionists too?
Of course, the reason that you haven’t noticed any examples of a modern anti-Semitic leftist is because you’re willfully blind and ignoring anything that doesn’t fit in with fapping to leftist Purity of Essence. I just pointed out one and you ignored it. We’ll see if you’ll notice the second example.
You can simply concede you were wrong and admit that your cheer-leading for leftism was pretty retarded if it makes you utter such laughable blanket generalizations. Proof of a raging anti-Semite who was also a leftist doesn’t count because, why, he’s past the expiration date! And it’s not an example of an American leftist anti-Semite because, well, hey look over there! I suppose I could also mention Ford, but as he’s probably past your arbitrary expiration date (and/or was not sufficiently a Democrat) he’ll be handwaved too.
You just handwaved away a cite from LHoD which alleged that Britain’s pro-Israel lobby was a “kosher conspiracy”. Do you even know what the phrase “race card”* means?*
You* just* claimed that it was only an honest attempt to discuss how bad Zionism is and it was being “smeared” as anti-Semitic. And now you’re alleging that a “kosher conspiracy” to dominate a nation on behalf of Israel is only mildly anti-Semitic. And you’re still unable to simply admit you were wrong when even an example that you (grudgingly) admit is anti-Semitic doesn’t count and you’re still right and no leftist can possibly be an anti-Semite.
But of course you’re already quickly backpedaling. First it was that “no leftist”, then it was “no Democrat who isn’t properly leftist”, then it was “no leftist who isn’t modern”, and now the New Statesman presumably doesn’t count because it’s one of them thar Yurrupeen leftist rags and only modern, American, Democrat-and-sufficient-leftists count.
I assume that if you say true to form it’ll be about another 250ish posts in this thread before you admit that you were laughably transparent when you tried to claim that leftists and anti-Semites are 100% mutually exclusive.
Oh, and not that I’d expect intellectual honesty from you once you get into full on Stubborn Mode, but Farrakhan is a supporter of Obama.
Quite the contrary.
My point is that the founders of Israel were, in the main, Europeans with half a millenium or more of European history, science, culture, politics behind them. A homeland where they could be safe from persecution was certainly a good idea. Ideally, that homeland would have been in Europe, not the Middle East. Pretending that Europe was not their home, that they were not Europeans, was racist.
That said, the existence of Israel is a settled issue, a political fact that should not, and probably cannot, be undone.
There is no such thing as “lefty antisemitism,” period. The absolute best you can do is a priest from 80 years ago and Jesse Jackson saying “Hymietown.” I continue to rest my case. I’m not backpedalling from anything. You couldn’t name any lefty antisemites. Even you can’t possibly really think that David Duke as a lefty, and surely you know better than to think that Democrats in the deep south were always liberals (or even that Democrats NOW are always liberals).
I will also point out, by the way, that my original contention was that you do not find “lefty academic papers” defending antisemitism. Doesn’t happen.
Farrakhan’s a far right fascist. Nothing remotely liberal about him. He and his organization are the black American counterpart to groups like the BNP.
“He supports Obama” ? You’ve got to do better than that, or I can’t take you seriously.
That’s because you have the intellectual integrity of a 5 dollar whore with a day job selling used cars, via the internet, in Nigeria.
A leftist anti-semite from the 1930’s? Doesn’t count. Yes, he’s a leftist and an anti-Semite, but he’s clearly past his expiration date. So no leftist anti-semites ever existed. Ford? Same deal.
Jackson and Sharpton both showing that they’re anti-Semites? Doesn’t count because then you’d have to admit you were wrong. We don’t really need a reason why, you refusing to admit an error is enough of a justification.
I don’t know why I bother with a partisan shill like you, Dio, but reenacting the Black Knight scene from The Holy Grail has some sort of perverse appeal.
Ah well.
When you try to pass off David Duke and Louis Farrakhan as liberals, you really don’t have any room to moan about intellectual honesty.
There is no such thing as “lefty anti-semitism.” It doesn’t exist. It’s a sentiment completely at odds with liberalism. Sure, an old liberal black guy said “hymie” once. That’s all you’ve got. That’s your entire arsenal.
That’s not true. You can argue that on balance he’s an asshole, and I wouldn’t disagree, but sweeping absolutes like that are Dio’s domain. Supporting Obama and opposing the Iraq war are both, at the very least, “remotely liberal” things to do.
Stop being stupid. Even if you weren’t lying in order to make the above claim (you are, I’ll get to that in a moment), you not having an iota of intellectual integrity wouldn’t be effected by whether or not I had any, either.
Now, I never claimed that Duke was a liberal, you made that up. I pointed out that he ran as a Democrat for years.
Likewise, I never claimed that Farrakhan was a liberal, you made that up. I pointed out that claiming that there was nothing liberal about him was false.
Just give it up, Dio. You have no intellectual integrity at all. You are don’t care about the truth as long as you can avoid admitting a mistake. Jackson and Sharpton, both clear racists and clear leftists? They don’t count because they’re just old liberal black guys. What you think them being old, or black, has got to do with anything is beyond me. I’d be amused to see you try to justify your evasion on either basis though. You’re kinda funny as long as folks realize that you’re a partisan shill dancing for our entertainment.
Pat Buchanan opposed the Iraq war too. His point, like Farrakhan’s, was that it was a war for Israel, not for American interests. They’re both right wing fascists with strong (so called) religious motivations for their beliefs. You can identify a populist strain in the rhetoric of both men. If that makes them liberals, then so are Tea Partyers.
You present… ahem… a bit of a skewed perspective.
If I remember reading things correctly, it wasn’t that Europe wanted to kick them out. Zionism was alive and well as an ideology prior to Hitler. Then WWII kind of kicked it into high gear - Jews didn’t want to be minorities scattered about various European nation states where major chunks of their “people” were just wiped out by a popularly-elected madman. So, short of digging out an enclave in Europe for them (which, let’s face it, European guilt over the Holocaust wasn’t that guilty) they needed to go somewhere. Where’d they go? Their biblical/ancestral homeland which was the focus of an ideological movement decades earlier.
It was just occupied by a bunch of brown people. But no matter, the Brits controlled the Mandate. Move along Arabs, we’re sending some new people into town.
Yes, it’s racist (insofar as we chronically misuse the term). But I don’t think it was really racist towards the Jews, if you get my drift.
He did. But the reasons were different and it didn’t just boil down to anti-Israel paranoia. Farrakhan urged that we look to peace after 9/11 rather than spilling blood. He didn’t argue, as far as I’m aware, that any spilling of blood would be because of Israel. Likewise he’d long had an opposition to sanctions on Iraq due to the civilian hardship it was causing. Claiming that all that wasn’t “at all” liberal simply because most of the stuff that comes out of his mouth is batshit insane doesn’t fly. Likewise, supporting Obama can’t really be claimed to be “not at all” liberal.
Drawing boxes and stuffing people into them is all well and good, and folks can argue that Farrakhan doesn’t qualify as a liberal (and I wouldn’t disagree), but saying that absolutely nothing he’s ever done is the least bit “liberal” is nonsensical.
Was Zionism really supported by a majority of European Jews?
There are numerous instances throughout European history where Jews were expelled from various localities. So clearly some of the Europeans did want to kick out Jews.The Nazis even considered expulsion before settling on extermination. It’s also clear that a big chunk of the Jewish managerial and professional classes in Germany were assimilated into German society. As far as I’m aware, they didn’t want out of Europe.
You cited him as a response to my request for examples of lefty antisemites. If you’re now admitting that he’s not a lefty, then why did you cite him? It’s irrelevant that he was ever a Democrat.
This is disingenuous as hell. Once again, you tried to cite him as an example of a leftist anti-semite. There is absolutely nothing leftist about Farrakhan. Opposing the Iraq War is not leftist, and he supported Obama purely for racial reasons, not political ones.
No, they are NOT clear racists. That is bullshit.
You’re normally capable of better than this. You’re usually pretty tough to debate. You’re slipping.