sailor your rush to start a cite war on this issue just shows that you know you are wrong.
** smiling bandit** said:
Your response to this is anecdotal evidence. You saw some people cheering. You saw some children throwing stones. You can show cites that attacks against Americans are continuing.
So what?
Polls show that most people in Iraq want the US troops there. You know that you cannot come up with a poll to say otherwise, so you try and prove your point with cites about the ongoing attacks. This is shoddy debating at best, and more likely simply dishonest because you know better.
Of course the media in Iraq is reporting on the attacks and reporting on demonstrations by ex-Iraqi military and such. These things are newsworthy. The massive areas of Iraq that are peaceful and being rebuilt are not as interesting and aren’t going to be reported on as much. So, a contest about who can find the most cites is pointless.
It’s not really needed, since we both know that I’m right on this point, but here is a cite showing it…
Well, another Blackhawk was taken down yesterday, this one likely by the same sort of low-tech RPG that plagued the Americans in Somalia. Another tail-rotor hit.
There is no question in my mind that the helicopter was already an instrument of oppression in Iraq long before the Americans got there. Helicopters were used by Hussein to crush the revolts which sprung up in the aftermath of the Gulf War, for example, and were alleged to be one of the primary delivery mechanisms for chemical weapons in the 1980s.
I think it’s perfectly safe to say that while we don’t know who or how many oppose the occupation of Iraq, some certainly do, and I think it’s also safe to say that the helicopters present a target which is at the same time symbolic, tactical and strategic in nature.
We can expect to lose a lot more of them before things get better, if they ever do get better.
Oh, I forgot to mention a random thought: one simple way to prevent RPG attacks on Blackhawks might be to increase the firepower and ground surveillance on missions by… you guessed it… strapping extra gunners in the doorways of the helicopter, much like the MH-6. A soldier strapped in the doorway with the legs dangling out would allow him or her to fire to the sides and nearly straight down, hopefully providing enough harassing fire to foil the RPGrenadier’s aim at the tail rotor.
Of course, doing so opens the strap-gunners to other small arms fire, and it might further insult the Iraqis.
>> sailor your rush to start a cite war on this issue just shows that you know you are wrong.
You as for cites, I give you cites and now you say you don’t want to start a cite war. :rolleyes:
The fact is that you cannot even find anecdotal cites of pro-American demonstrations. The fact is that there are plenty of anti-American demonstrations reported in the news.
The fact is that the US government is distorting the truth and even Zogby had to come out and say the results of their work was being misrepresented.
Please answer my questions. There have been massive antiamerican demonstrations. Where are the massive pro-american demonstrations? There are daily attacks on US forces and in every one where we see footage of iraqis on the site they are celebrating. Where is the footage of Iraqis mourning? How would it be possible for the resistance to operate if they did not have popular support?
Even thought you are still dodging the main issue - (There being no poll numbers to back up your position and there are for mine.) - I will still answer your questions, as you insist.
There probably aren’t any.
BTW, I still haven’t seen a cite from you that there are massive anti-American demonstrations in Iraq.
That one picture from your link shows maybe a couple hundred people with fists in the air. Is that all you have?
If I show a picture of 100 people protesting the US government taken in washington DC, is that enough proof that the overwhelming majority of Americans hate America and want US troops to die? I could even toss in a couple of cites of men on the street saying such things. Attending one anti-war protest in Washington would give me all the ammo I needed to make a case just as strong as the one you are making in Iraq.
You continue to instist on proving your point using alarming photographs and single phrases spoken by Iraqi’s on the street (always taken from the one small area where attacks are occuring and loyalty to Saddam still exists). If all the Iraqi’s hate the Americans and want us out, why don’t polls show that?
There isn’t any.
Either there isn’t any mourning, or there isn’t any footage of them mourning. Why would there be?
Most of the resistance is limited to the Sunni Triangle area (or whatever they are calling it now). They may indeed have some support in this area.
The CNN program I saw had interviews with a resistance cell. There were 12 of them and they had an arms cache and would ambush US troops. How much support do 12 men need? It’s not like Vietnam where you are talking about an army of hundreds of thousands than need to be fed and housed. These small cells can be nearly totally self supporting. A few families with farms could support a cell of 12 men.
Even if they have support from all of the population of that area, which I don’t believe they do, it still doesn’t come close to proving your point. There are huge areas in the north and south where no attacks are occuring and reconstruction is proceeding nicely.
I dispute your premise that polls prove what you say they prove. You can get any result you want from a poll by how you phrase the questions and how you interpret the answers. And the US government has been applying industrail quantities of spin to information, including poll results.
There is plenty of proof that a great number of Iraqis hate being occupied by the USA. You call it anecdotal but it is plenty and it is the majority of what we see. You say there is a “silent majority” who thinks otherwise and I say that is nonsense.
You disqualify those who oppose the USA as “Saddam loyalists”. First, you have no proof that they are Saddam loyalists and even the US government has refrained from saying they are all Saddam loyalists but, in any case, so what? This is the “true Scotsman” argument. They are Iraqis no matter what and have the right to their opinions.
You did not say the words “silent majority” but, unless I am misunderstanding you, that is what you say is happeneing: a majority of Iraqis are happy but do not demonstrate it while a minority are unhappy and are vocal about it. If that is not what you are saying then I am misunderstanding you.
And I think the main reason things are not goinf well is because Iraqis are not as cooperative as the USA would like.
Well, they seem vocal enough about it when asked in polls. But, you choose to ignore the polls and instead focus on the fact that attacks are happenning as a metric to mean that all Iraqi’s hate the US and want us out. This is what I have an issue with.
As to things “going well”, I would rather steer clear of that because it is an entirely different debate.