(quotes from ThinkProgress abstract of poll, link is to original source)
If an referendum were held tomorrow (if such were possible tomorrow, Iraqis would dip their finger in purple ink and flip us off. They don’t want us there, we don’t want to be there, and there we are.
WTF? No, seriously, WTF? Please make special note of that second statistic: the number of Iraqis who support attacks on US troops. Not shocked and sickened, not ambivalent, support! Jesus fuck a shit souffle!
(Exception: there is considerable evidence that the Kurds just flat love us half to death. I suspect they hope we will protect them from our allies, the Turks, and our enemies, the Iranians. Whether this reflects any real admiration I leave to the reader’s judgement…)
Why does this ‘news’ shock you? Why is it surprising? Was there ever a country that was happy to be invaded and occupied…especially when such shit was on going?
I’m assuming you feel that since the majority of Iraqi’s feel that we should pack up and leave, that we should. I agree. Of course, when it all goes tits up, I’m sure it will be cold comfort to those going in the fire (bit of a mixed metaphore there, sorry), but if its what they want I say give it to em.
Hmong, hell. Just ask the Kurds that were left high and dry after Gulf War I: The One Where the US didn’t Fuck Up.
And while I still think that it falls to the US to fix most (frankly, some would be kinda nice) of the things that we fucked up before we skate, I’m also not at all surprised that the Iraqis view us as an occupying force (because there’s been nothing to dissuade that view, you damn betcha) and want us to leave. Turn the tables and ask how long the average American would tolerate a force that moved in and tortured even one person before they took up arms and started demanding that said force get the hell out.
Gee, and so many other countries welcome invaders who kill 30k+ of their civilian countrymen. What the hell is wrong with these Iraqis, don’t they like Democracy?
Kurdish history goes like this: Starting from about 1920 western forces promise big, then ditch them in the muck at the first whiff of petroleum. Rinse and repeat.
There isn’t a lot of love there. Rather the Kurds likely are pleased that the US is backed into a corner where it has little choice but to prop up whatever stability there is in the former Iraq. (Am I the first to use that phrase?)
I find it rather amusing how conservatives crow about the “will of the people” being an all important value when the will of the people is on their side (even if the margin is 51% to 49% in their favor) and how absolutely nothing should interfere (especially not those evil Supreme Court Justices who impose sodomy on us against our wills). But yet here we are in Iraq, arrogantly imposing our will on people who very clearly don’t want us to be there. Curious.
Heard that explained as because the Iraqis are still in Saddam-mode, and distrust poll-takers and that ilk. Which would mean that the polls would not guage the Iraqis true feelings. Why, exactly, they should tell a pollster that they don’t want Americans there when they do what not explained.
Actually, Rufus, the line is that they will come to America, not necessarily follow us here. They wouldn’t be dumb enough to follow us to Anarctica, there being no chance whatever of blending in amongst the population, being penguins.
I suppose things could get worse for ordinary Iraqis, in fact once the Americans leave things probably will, but given current circumstances, one can understand if a majority of those polled find that the US presence has been rather less than useful to them.
Sorry, I guess I don’t have an opposing position for debate. I’d like to see more democracies in the Middle East as much as the next guy, but I really don’t see the US plan, such as it is, working any better five years from now than it does at present. If that’s the case, pull 'em out now, pull’em out later, it doesn’t matter all that much. Plenty more blood will be shed in either case. My only question for now is, will anyone from this administration ever be held accountable for the increasingly pointless mess we’ve made?
“Whatever mistakes have been made in Iraq, the worst mistake would be to think that if we pulled out, the terrorists would leave us alone. They will not leave us alone. They will follow us.”
George W. Bush, 09/11/06
He didn’t say where they will follow us. As for the terrorists not being dumb, why are they fighting armed and armored troops in Iraq when they could be fighting soccer moms in Peoria? I mean, if they’re too dumb to find America without following the troops home, who’s to say they wouldn’t follow the troops anywhere?
The Kurds will actually come out of this pretty well for once. They have taken advantage of the chaos to quietly build their own nation (not that Turkey and Iran haven’t noticed). It is clear that their strategy is to establish stability and the Kurds will have their own country by default when the rest of Iraq just sort of melts away.
Key to this, though, is the oil rich and contested city of Kirkuk. In order for Kurdistan to be viable, it has to have the income generated by the oil fields of Kirkuk, but there is a sizeable Sunni Arab population that will try to stop them. It will be a nasty front in the civil war.
When you go from Baghdad to Kurdistan the transition is jarring. In Kurdistan you can go out to dinner, go for a walk, and it is well maintained and clean. They have their own flag and it is actually illegal to fly the Iraqi national flag. They also have their own entry visa which is not recognized by the government of Iraq which means if you enter the country via Kurdistan and you don’t get an entry visa later from the government of Iraq, you are in the country illegally.
I have yet to hear an explanation for why we are here and I sincerely would like to hear a supporter of this administration explain it, with identifiable benchmarks for success. Preferrably, I would like one of these Bush supporters to fly here to Baghdad, get in a taxi and come to my apartment and explain it to me in person.
Well I’m pleased to hear this, mostly because it seems I have coined “former Iraq” but partly because it seems the Kurds may finally be getting a break. Leaving aside Iran and the coming battles for Kirkuk, the question is what the US can offer Turkey, to keep them from spoiling an independent Kurdistan. Turkey has been clear in its opposition for a while.
First, they are easier to get to, and a soldier isn’t that much harder to kill from ambush than anyone else. Second, killing American soldiers in Iraq isn’t terrorism, it’s guerilla warfare.