Hello Universe? Can we get some better Trump defenders on this board?

[iiandyiiii]

@Hamlet

I’ve disagreed multiple times on multiple topics (and agreed too) with Bricker, and he ran the gamut from intelligent debater to partisan hack. Let’s not pretend he was always above board, though. He was more than willing to ignore facts or evidence that did not support his view, to devolve a conversation into name-calling, to rely heavily on the old tu quoque for almost everything, and to simply repeat himself. More than that, he had a penchant for being a condescending prick about the law to non-lawyers, constantly punching down rather than debating an equal. Rather than explain the law, or try to educate someone, he was much more prone to play the Paper Chase professor and be a smug jerk.

I’m also quite curious why he left. I’m guessing he realized what the Trump election/administration says about the realities of the Republican party rather than what he was trying to sell it as for years, and didn’t want the hassle. I hope him and his family are well.

Maybe. Even if these criticisms are accurate, though, I think they apply to tons of posters on the board some of the time. I think his good posts to bad posts ratio was better than most, which is why I wish he stuck around.

[BeepKillBeep]

@iiandyiiii

Maybe. Even if these criticisms are accurate, though, I think they apply to tons of posters on the board some of the time. I think his good posts to bad posts ratio was better than most, which is why I wish he stuck around.

This is exactly right.

And for those who seem utterly mystified as to why Bricker left, and seem to think it had anything to do with finding there was no way to defend the indefensible. Well, I can make a reasonable prediction as to why he left. Because he got treated like shit. He would make a post, and he would get maybe one or two decent replies, and the rest would be shitting on him, often using some post from the past as evidence.

Bricker wasn’t perfect, but as iiandyii said above, his good posts outweighed his bad posts. And we all have some bad posts.

[MEBuckner]

This is one of those “Monkey’s Paw” type situations, isn’t it?

[Slash1972]

@Hamlet

Swing and a miss.

When I spoke of his penchant for arrogance and punching down, it wasn’t about me. I am a lawyer; one who has dealt with many lawyers in my life, and I recognized (and understood) what he was saying and doing.

Fair enough. I remove you from the list of people he made feel stupid.

[wguy123]

I think one of the most rationale and reasoned Trump supporters just signed up:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=888943

Universe was listening. Hopefully the other T supporters already here will pay attention and take notes.

[Slash1972]

Come on! That guy is awesome!

[QuickSilver]

I agree. I hope we haven’t scared him off.

[iiandyiiii]

JC closed the thread. That’s a shame – I was enjoying that one.

[elucidator]

I was never pissed that he made me feel stupid, I was pissed because he tried.

[DMC]

@iiandyiiii

I agree. Bricker leaving is a loss for the board, as infuriating as I sometimes found him. His flaws as a poster were the kind of flaws that appear to me to be generally glossed over and mostly ignored unless they come from someone who goes against the grain on the board (which is more of an indictment of human nature than the board itself – we lean liberal, and thus as humans, we’re more likely to object to and challenge views that are very different from ours than those more similar).

I would have agreed with you prior to the Voter ID thread. After seeing him perform in that, nah, he’s just a piece of shit that doesn’t care who is affected as long as the Republicans win.

He also assumed that everyone on my side operates in the same way. Various stances on gerrymandering have shown that not to be the case. Most democrats here seem to want to outlaw gerrymandering and come up with a fair method of ensuring that everyone has an equal voice, even if it turns out to favor Republicans. I’m not even against VoterID laws in principle. First, make sure everyone has an ID for free (requiring them to pay for birth certificates is not free), THEN implement these laws.

[BobLibDem]

@Bricker

We’ll never know what made Bricker uncomfortable here.

I can guarantee that whatever does make you uncomfortable would not make me lose respect for you.

[Guest-starring_Id]

Love it when people speak of themselves in third person, Guest noted.

[bobot]

@RitterSport

I mean, EasyPhil and Jim Peebles are just mental midgets who don’t even know how to parse the English language, refuse to acknowledge arguments refuting their ridiculous points, post cites to actual Russian propaganda outlets, and then come back and do it again. Now Ultravires is back, the winner of the Troy McClure trophy for worst arguing lawyer, repeating debunked bullshit about “a few internet memes”.

Shodan knows there’s no real defense, so he brushes up against a warning for a bullshit drive-by post in ATMB, with some deep-state conspiracy bullshit about the moderators here.

…

Have you heard Trump defenders in congress? In the national media? It’s all the same, this is as good as it gets.

[The_Tooth]

@QuickSilver

Bricker can be infuriating, but he’s articulate and his arguments are often compelling. We don’t always have to agree with someone in order to have a thought provoking conversation.

On the other hand, he’s an apologist for torturers.

[steronz]

@steronz

What would you do with an intelligent defense, though? What if someone said…

@Hypothetical Intelligent Trump Supporter

The end’s justify the means. The real threats America is going to face over the next several decades are expensive social programs and an overzealous federal government that slowly chips away at citizen’s rights. Any election of a democrat is a furtherance of those threats, and any election of a republican is a defense. If Donald Trump has to color outside the lines a bit in order to prevent a Biden presidency, then that is in America’s best interest. In that light, what Trump did with Ukraine was not for his “personal benefit,” it was for the benefit of our country.

I can go on, but the point is, where do you go from there? This hypothetical Trump supporter has sidestepped all issues of legality and simply accepted that what Trump did was OK because Democrats are very, very bad and need to be stopped at all costs. So now what? Do you think you’ll get very fair in a reasoned debate with this person?

This is probably going to get buried in this old thread but I’m bumping this to highlight my amazing powers of insight into the minds of the true believers, or at least those paid to pretend to be true believers.

Per NPR reporting, Alan Dershowitz today made pretty much this same argument:

Another of Trump’s attorneys, Alan Dershowitz, for example, argued that because a president always believes his own election and administration are in the public interest, it’s virtually impossible for him to act officially without also acting for his own personal benefit — except in cases when he might profit financially.

And that means he can’t be impeached on the basis of motives that no outside person could parse, he argued.

Well not quite, maybe, but it’s along the same lines – Trump believes Trump getting elected in 2020 is in the country’s best interest, and so anything he does to help himself get elected is official business.

My only regret is that I thought this was the argument of a hypothetical intelligent Trump supporter. Seeing it come out of Dershowitz’ mouth makes me regret that generous reading.

[RitterSport]

@steronz

…

My only regret is that I thought this was the argument of a hypothetical intelligent Trump supporter. Seeing it come out of Dershowitz’ mouth makes me regret that generous reading.

Heh.

The Impeachment trial really does make it crystal clear that there are no defenses of Trump behavior that are all of (a) honest, (b) intellligent, and (c) care about the law. You can defend his behavior by saying, “so what? Democrats are so dangerous that anything to stop them is fine” (Dershowitz). You can defend them by saying “hey, look over there! Biden’s son did something.” (I think this was Bondi’s defense?) Or, you can defend him by saying, “derp, derp, Trump is innocent” (I think this was his lawyer’s defense?)

EP basically just pointed over there to Carter Page and Adam Schiff. I have no idea what Jim Peebles defense was – somewhere between dishonest and stupid. UV’s defenses are just dumb. HD defenses were disingenuous/dishonest.

Anyway, this thread has really, really run its course, especially with the Trump defense team proving once and for all that there are no better Trump defenders anywhere.

[Kearsen1]

@BeepKillBeep

This is exactly right.

And for those who seem utterly mystified as to why Bricker left, and seem to think it had anything to do with finding there was no way to defend the indefensible. Well, I can make a reasonable prediction as to why he left. Because he got treated like shit. He would make a post, and he would get maybe one or two decent replies, and the rest would be shitting on him, often using some post from the past as evidence.

Bricker wasn’t perfect, but as iiandyii said above, his good posts outweighed his bad posts. And we all have some bad posts.

My takeaway from Bricker was this:

1. If it was possible for you to be rational about an issue, then his arguments made sense.
   But 2. If you were set in your way and emotional about an issue Bricker wasn’t for you.

I liked and admired his ability to stay cool.

[QuickSilver]

@rittersport

heh.

The impeachment trial really does make it crystal clear that there are no defenses of trump behavior that are all of (a) honest, (b) intellligent, and (c) care about the law. You can defend his behavior by saying, “so what? Democrats are so dangerous that anything to stop them is fine” (dershowitz). You can defend them by saying “hey, look over there! Biden’s son did something.” (i think this was bondi’s defense?) or, you can defend him by saying, “derp, derp, trump is innocent” (i think this was his lawyer’s defense?)

ep basically just pointed over there to carter page and adam schiff. I have no idea what jim peebles defense was – somewhere between dishonest and stupid. uv’s defenses are just dumb. hd defenses were disingenuous/dishonest.

Anyway, this thread has really, really run its course, especially with the trump defense team proving once and for all that there are no better trump defenders anywhere.

eot/ftw

[margin]

@Kearsen1

My takeaway from Bricker was this:

1. If it was possible for you to be rational about an issue, then his arguments made sense.
   But 2. If you were set in your way and emotional about an issue Bricker wasn’t for you.

I liked and admired his ability to stay cool.

Bricker’s a straight white guy. The GOP only wants to take away the rights of women, people of color, LGBTQ folks, non-hypocritical-non-asshole Christians-who-do-what-Jesus said" , immigrants, brown folks…everybody but straight white male dudes who call themselves “Christians” in the same way guys like Trump claim they “love” and"respect" women.

None of his rights are on the table. His body has never been subject to legislation. And, no, the draft does not count, unless the draft involves bring impregnated against one’s will and forced to give birth.

Also----because I know certain people are more interested in intellectual dishonesty than listening—note I said “white.” No, I don’t care that there’s evil women or whatever who are Trumpies. The GOP is the party of hateful white guys.

Of fucking course he’s cool. He’s talking about other people. It’s not personal to him. And spare any “father of daughters/some of best friends are:
black/Jewish/Muslim friends”-type crap.

[Shodan]

@margin

Bricker’s a straight white guy. The GOP only wants to take away the rights of women, people of color, LGBTQ folks, non-hypocritical-non-asshole Christians-who-do-what-Jesus said" , immigrants, brown folks…

Bricker is Hispanic, actually.

Does this “you need to know everything about me before you go after me in the Pit” apply to everyone? Asking for a friend.

Regards,
Shodan