Help (and compassion) from SDMB polyamorists and other Dopers requested

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

Makes perfect sense to me. It’s part of that whole wanting to be special and important and needed and loved thing. (I have a theory that this is the source of a lot of conflict between couples; when we’re not getting something we want or need from our partners, the stuff isn’t the real issue. The real issue is wanting to be special enough, and important enough, and loved enough that our partner wants to do these things for us.) You want to be special enough and important enough to her, and loved enough by her, that she wants to have a white picket fence and 2.5 kids with you. And the idea that you might not be is tearing you apart. That’s got to be absolute hell. I wish there was something someone could say to make it feel better.

If being with her on an equal footing with nevermore is going to tear you to pieces, if you’re going to die a little every time they go into her bedroom and shut the door, if the sound of your children calling nevermore “mommy” is going to be a whiplash across your heart, you do not need to be with this woman. If your emotional needs aren’t being met, your soul will bleed to death from a million tiny cuts, and your love for her will shrivel up and turn sour. You both deserve a lot better than that.

I have to wonder about something, though. The linked thread said the threesome ended a month or two ago, but you apparently insisted it end again a few days ago. If we knew why the three of you decided to try again, and why you decided it had to end right after you got a rather disappointing answer to your proposal, we might be able to help you sort through your feelings a little better.

22

GrizzRich I just grokked. Talking to Carolyn and she says that she will be monogamous with Nevermore if that’s where their relationship goes, that she wants to find out where their relationship will go. Nevermore in the meanwhile wants to ‘take the chance I had’. That since I tried and failed its her turn.

Very very wise. Thank you.

Bingo.
(but what’s really going to bake your noodle later on, is would you have broken it if I hadn’t said anything?)

Me too.
Although I certainly appreciate all the help I’ve been given already.

Yeah… that sounds like a special branch of Hell reserved for me.

That doesn’t seem like it’d bother me actually.
Heck, I’d like to have kids with Nevermore too.

True enough.

I think that pretty much it was always my decision to continue it.
And I didn’t want to be apart from Nevermore. ~sad smiles~
As for the answer to my proposal, I counted that as a very very happy one and not at all disappointing.

As for why I decided to ask for the threesome to end recently, essentially out of insecurity.
And Caro told me that if I wasn’t happy with the threesome it had no purpose.
And she’d always told me that if I wasn’t happy I should end it and she’d be fine with it, and she pretty much always was in the past.

So I figured I was tired of the stress, of the fighting, of feeling that I wasn’t special enough, and I wanted to focus on Caro only.

23

So yah… judging from the fact that she’d leave me for Nevermore but not leave Nevermore for me, I can only assume that ‘primaries’ have switched, and that ‘equality’ is something that she likes to think about, but like most of the other things she’s said over the last eight months, it bears more in common with what she’d like to be true than what’s true.
And that she’s about as poly as I am.

24

In other words, you wanted Caro to focus on you only. I’m sorry it didn’t turn out that way, sweetie.

25

Yeah, that’s what I wanted, and vice versa.
But…

If she’s poly and Nevermore and I are truly equal, what is this bussiness about 'finding out where [their] relationship goes?"
If they’re poly, their relationship can only get deeper/warmer/closer, whatever.
But that’s not a change, that’s just getting to know someone and getting closer.
If Caro is mono, then she could end up alone with Nevermore, which she already said she’d do if asked…
In other words, I think I’ve just been dumped and I’m being used to transition to her new partner.
This sucks.

26

Ok, here’s where you lost my sympathy.

One does not “extract promises” from one’s beloved. One extracts promises from one’s bank or one’s landlord. That you think it’s acceptable to extract promises from your partner regarding the nature of your partner’s relationships is clear evidence that you’re not tempermentally capable of being poly.

To be poly, you have to accept that your partner(s) will have relationships that won’t be entirely under your control. You must also understand that if you make a request of your partner and your partner is unwilling to meet it, your choices are to accept that your partner is unwilling to accept that request, or terminate (or at least temper) the relationship. It sounds like you aren’t willing to do either of these two things, which is why your partner has taken it upon herself to terminate her relationship with you on the grounds that you’re being unreasonable. Basically, you broke the basic poly relationship contract, and she’s leaving you because of it.

It sounds to me that you’re not willing to trust your partner to come back to you after a period in which she pays more attention to her other partner than to you. Without that trust, you do not have a viable poly relationship. In short, you can’t be jealous and poly at the same time, and you’re clearly jealous.

Clearly, you and your partner are not compatible, and it seems to me that the best course for all here is to terminate (or at least substantially alter) the nature of the relationship. Which is what I believe I told nevermore back when she posted on this, too.

Note that I’m not pointing blame here, just pointing out that your natures are fundamentally incompatible. That’s unfortunate for the three of you, but I think there’s not much to be done about it but chalk it up as a life lesson and move on as best as you can.

27

Gods does this suck…
and both of them want me to stay
but I don’t know if I can have the woman who I want to marry leave me cold and alone in order to go to someone else’s bed…
Nevermore doesn’t even want to be ‘equal’, just respected and not able to be told-to-leave…
~sighs~
I want to make this work, with all my heart, I want to be with both of them and have them be happy and free and open and honest with each other and their relationship, I just don’t know if I can.

I’m an intellectual, an air sign… a poet… an INFP… I feel things so intensely… I just don’t want to lose either of them, and I don’t know if that’s a possibility… I don’t know what I need, a new way or thinking, or just… maybe I should go… but if I do I won’t be able to talk with them again… can’t hang out with Nevermore knowing that she’s the life-partner of the woman I wanted to marry… I’m just not that strong.

Damnit, I have no fucking idea what to do.

28

First, I asked, twice, in the OP for people to hold their tongues if that’s all there is to say.
I am asking you, politely, either to have some compassion or not post in my thread.
I know I’ve done things wrong, but now I want to know how to do them right.
If all you have to elaborate on is how exactly I’ve fucked up, you really can save that, I’m accutely aware of just how I’ve failed.

Sorry I lost your sympathy.
But I have no idea why setting boundaries at the beginning of a new relationship is so horrible.
It wasn’t like I beat her with a stick, or forced her to agree to anything.
She wanted me to be happy, I told her the safeguards I’d want to see.
And, simply for the record, she exacted the same sorts of promises for me.
For a while she wasn’t even comfortable with me finishing sex inside of Nevermore and demanded that I either use a condom or pull out.
Yes, she was always better than me about this, but that doesn’t mean that I was some fucking ogre who hit her until she agreed to give up some fundemental part of herself.

This is simply not true.
There is no Poly Rulebook.
I have known other poly couples who most certainly did have ground rules and agreements.
I’ve known long term poly couples who had rules that anybody the other person dated had to be Ok’d first.
I’ve known long term poly couples who let their partner do whatever they wanted but demanded that they use protection.
I’ve known long term poly couples who had the agreement that anybody else could be dated but at the end of most nights they’d be sleeping together.
Surely you are not telling me that they weren’t poly?
I mean, damnit, the whole reasoning behind being poly instead of mandatory-monogamy: one thing doesn’t work for everybody.
Who are you, and who is anybody, to say what polyamory must be for other couples, besides loving more?
Honestly?

As you really have no idea what our arangements were, or what she wanted, I would appreciate it if you’d refrain from those sorts of statements.
She would certainly never say I was being unreasonable.
I don’t need you giving me shit on her behalf when she wouldn’t even agree with you.

Especially since you’re just flat out wrong.
She hasn’t decided to terminate her relationship with me, she wants me to stay.
She’s not leaving me.
And I honestly have to question what it is you’re referring to or what baggage you bring to this.

I could address this with other real-world examples of poly groups that feel, and deal with jealousy.
And it isn’t that I don’t trust her to come back to me after being with someone else, it’s that she’s telling me she might not.

That is of course a distinct possibility.
But both of them are requesting that I stay and try to work on things.
And I want to spend my life with both of them.
And they understand that even if this works it will take lots of time and energy and be very difficult.
But I am not giving up, on either of them.

29

KellyM: I really don’t mean any offense.
But I do not understand why you respond to my request for help and compassion with things that, well, simply aren’t true.
Your surmises about Carolyn’s opinions and emotions are wrong, and I don’t know why you’re arguing from your paradigm.
Hell, I have no idea why you’re attempting to tell me what polyamory can and can not be.
There is no contract any of us signed, no agreement but those that were made, no reality but the one we’re in the process of making.
Isn’t the entire point to find out what works for you?
If a couple is okay with being primary and bringing in a person, for a short and limited duration every now and again, with explicit rules to that effect, can they no longer call themselves poly?
Does every poly grouping need to be totally ‘hands off’ in order to qualify as poly in your schema of classification?
Hell, does every poly group need to be totally ok with everything?
Because I know that Carolyn would be pained if I were to leave her bed and spend the night with Nevermore, although she’d attepmt to deal with it.
Just like she’d be pained if I had children with Nevermore but she’d attempt to deal with it.
Perhaps things are not as nice and neat as you imply?
Perhaps jealousy is normal and a human and the manner in which you deal with it is what makes you poly or mono?

30

FinnAgain, I thought and thought about this, because I thought some aspect of my experience might help you. I don’t know if it can, but here goes. When I was twenty, I began a long-distance relationship with a man who was poly(R) and had a male partner that he lived with at the time (P). I am very jealous by nature and it was extremely difficult for me to deal with. I was very fond of P after I got to know him, but we were not in a triad. We were simply friends who happened to be dating the same person. What R and I worked out between us was that we could date others when we were apart, as long as we told each other about what happened, and that we would only be with other people together or in each other’s presence, with each other’s consent. He had a similar agreement with P.

For a time I did pretty well with this but not seeing R as much as I wanted was very difficult. The one thing that made me realize clearly that I was not cut out for poly relationships was one night I spent in the same bedroom with the two of them. I slept in a single bed by myself while R and P slept in the double bed. They didn’t do anything but I couldn’t sleep simply because of the fact that they were in the same bed. I broke up with R more than a year later after trying several times to “get over” my jealousy.

The “cold and alone” comment really sticks out for me. As things stand, if you feel that way, the three of you can’t go on the way you are, which I’m sure you know.

I’m sorry. I started out trying to help, and ended up doing nothing but giving my own story. If you need someone to talk to, FinnAgain, you can send me an e-mail through the board.

31

First thanks…
second, I don’t know if anybody can really help me, or if I can even help myself.
Maybe I want a magic bullet…
I know I wasn’t totally happy even when I was primary and she spent every night in my bed.

I’m not quite sure what I know.
I do think that having her leave my bed would devestate me each and every time.
But not having her will devestate me for the rest of my days.
No easy answers.

I think I may very well take you up on that, thank you.
I just don’t know.
It’s not jealousy.
It’s a feeling of abandonment, not being good enough.
And yah, that’s probably because of the abuse I suffered as a child.
But it still sucks.

32

I’m not poly, but I did study psychology, specializing in interpersonal relationships. (I am not a practicing/licensed psychologist or therapist, etc., etc.) Judging by the above, that sounds like you might not be poly. Or more accurately, you want to be poly, but you want your partners to be monogamous to you.

Matters like love, jealousy, and other strong emotions are rough in the best of situations. This is why most people might recommend avoiding stuff like polygamy, “friends with benefits”, etc., as those situations don’t often/always end well. Heck, even monogamous relationships have their share of troubles, so of course adding a third person adds much more complication.

I’m impressed at polygamous relationships - especially long-term triads, etc. - that work well, and wish those people all the best. But polygamy definitely isn’t for everyone, especially people dealing with jealousy issues in relationships.

33

Ferret Herder: see… it’s not so much about jealousy, as feeling not-good-enough. I do think that a lot of this stems from childhood abuse… and I don’t know if I can fix it. (gods I hate my father)

If Caro was with friends at a spa for the weekend, or away on a bussiness trip I wouldn’t mind. But having her spend the night with another lover makes me feel abandoned.

And I don’t know why I didn’t feel special when I obviously was.
Why even being primary wasn’t enough.

I just don’t know…
I want very much to be able to deal with all this, to enjoy what I have and not need someone with me all-the-time… but maybe I do need someone who’ll wake up next to me every morning…

~sighs~

I really have no idea what to do.
I’d never find anybody like Caro, or like Nevermore, and I need them both in different ways, they both give me different things that I need, and I don’t know if I can ever find all those things in one person. After all, Ms Perfect is already hooked up with Mr Perfect.

I want both of them to be happy.
I want both of them to be able to be free and open and honest with their love and not have to hide it.

I know that if Caro doesn’t want to be with me it’s wrong for me to cling, that she’ll only stay, and stay to the degree that she wants, of her own free will.

But I just don’t know…
This is more emotional than logical, more sensation than reason.
I wish I could lie alone in bed and not be sad, maybe I can…
I just don’t know.

(Edited at request of author. -JMCJ)

34

It sounds to me like you need to have something in this relationship (or each of these relationships) that’s just yours. Something that you can use as a bulwark to your confidence and your relationship, something that you can trust will not be threatened.

So my question to you is: How flexible are you capable of being? It’s pretty clear that there are some things that you’re not going to get exclusive possession of, and so trying to push for those will not be productive.

Don’t jump to something sexual while you try to figure out something that would be valuable to you; try to be creative. (I mean, I know one primary couple where the exclusive thing is that he’s the only one who gets to cut her hair.)

Also: see if you can break down the intense stuff into smaller pieces so that you can ask for the specific thing that you need. Would making an agreement that you get N nights a week spent with a specific person help you? Would making an agreement that if someone spends the evening with you they spend the night (so you don’t get left alone afterwards) help you? Try to break down your issues into smaller chunks and brainstorm solutions to those smaller problems. Big problems can be overwhelming, but sometimes it’s one niggly thing that’s the real important part and a lot of other stuff sort of gets lumped in with it.

35

First, thanks everybody for the help.
I’m not done needing it by a long shot.
But I am feeling better.
I’m a smart, attractive, devoted, loving, caring, warm, supportive, funny, cultured sorta fellow.
And that’s not a bad thing

Now: further down the rabbit hole.
(curiouser and curiouser)

First off, an interesting hurdle.
I talked with Caro and asked her if it’d be okay if while she’s away at Nevermore’s for half the month, if it’d be okay if I found someone else to share my bed during those lonely nights.

Now, if I understand the definition most folks have put forward of being poly, then a certian response would be indicated. Instead, she’s said that there’s no way I could do that. She wouldn’t be okay with me choosing people, even if they got a full STD workup and we used protection. She’d only be comfortable if I had one woman who I was in love with.

I just find that fascinating.

That might very well be it.
I think that the desire to always be with me and have kids might be enough. But I don’t know. I’m still testing my limits as this is a very new enterprise.

Yeah, exclusive possesion is impossible.
There’s really no point in asking for anything if someone doesn’t want to wake up with you every morning.
Handcuffs may be fun, but not for keeping someone in bed.

I think that I could be pretty flexable.
For instance.
This idea of having Carolyn be with Nevermore for half the time is just a bad idea.
It should probably work in thirds, with me being alone with Nevermore for one third of the time, alone with Caro one third of the time, and by myself one third of the time.
Also, although carolyn seems to be dead set against this idea, as long as she was spending her time out of our marriage bed, it seems fair for me to bring someone else into it.
I mean, even if I just had someone around for companionship, that sounds like a good way to warm my toes when I’d otherwise be alone in a cold bed.

I mean, stuff like that would be cool, and I’m considering it.
But I think that backing off and not being so devoted might even be better.
After all, I don’t think it’s fair of her to ask me to be totally devoted if she cant’ return it.

Yeah, I think that, like… 1/3 Caro, 1/3 nevermore, 1/3 alone might be fair. Then at least we’re all equal.

That would probably be a good ground rule to have in place. Kinda sucky to have a nice romantic dinner and then be told “ah, I’m outa here, gotta see my other partner.”

A good point.
We’re working things out, I think.

36

Yeah… Caro just said that she’s not poly, she just loves too people.
Good call Grizz

37

Don’t know if I need any more advice gentle readers.

Carolyn told me that she needs Nevermore, and would be mono with her…
she said she didn’t know about me, didn’t know if she even needed me.

So as of now she and I are apart, and I’m still with Nevermore. If caro changes her mind, I’m here. But I don’t think she will.

And in either case, my life will be sweet.

38

Does it make any difference in anybody’s interpretation that Carolyn is monogamous and may very well want to be alone with Nevermore?

Does that, essentially, mean that she’s always been mono and has just decided to trade me for her?

I know I said I didn’t need any more help, but this is really interesting to me. This is all new. There are no storybooks where the prince goes and slays the dragon, marries the Princess, and she wants to take her friend back to the castle too. And then decides she likes the friend more.

“Sometimes the light’s all shinin’ on me
other times I can barely see
lately it occurs to me
what a long strange trip it’s been.”
P.S. Sorry for posting so many times in a row… if any mods have a problem I will very readily stop posting in this thread.

39

Ah, Finn, Darling…

Yes, of course it changes things that Carolyn isn’t willing for you to pursue others (besides Nevermore). It means that at the moment, she doesn’t want you to pursue others. That’s it.

Does it mean she’s monogamous and not admitting it? Maybe.

Does it mean she’s really excited about her relationship with Nevermore? Probably.

Does it mean she wants you as insurance? Perhaps.

(ask her, ask her, ask her.)

So, I had this idea that may sound pithy, but I’m really wondering…what about a larger bed? Would y’all feel better with a king sized bed that would fit three? I can understand feeling alone and cold, but perhaps the answer isn’t more aloneness but more togetherness? How would all three of you feel about all three of you living together? Does that feel nice or feel scary?

Sounds to me (said the distant voice from the mountaintop) that you and Carolyn are both feeling, well…triamorous? Is that a word? That you want an exclusive relationship between three of you. And that’s neat. Nevermore indicated in that other thread that she was happy being exclusive with the two of you. If that hasn’t changed (ask her) then perhaps a triad dynamic is the way to go. (That is, one three person relationship, not two two-person relationships.)

Or maybe you should run for the hills. Still an option.

(And to answer your other question, yes, my hubby and I stumbled along for quite a while before getting it “right.” We still stumble. But we’re commited to making it work anyway. And yes, I still feel jealous of his other women. And he sometimes feels jealous of my other men (and women) But we talk about it, we hold hands and love each other, and that goes very far in making jealousy go away, or at least be bearable. I don’t agree that poly people never feel jealous - but they don’t let jealousy and fear rule their relationships.)

Are you a Gemini, my dear? You sound SO much like my husband and my last “other”, both Geminis. Oy. Being in relationship with the two of them at the same time was like dating 16 people - all of their Gemini selves were arguing with each other all the time!

40

I haven’t asked her all the other variables, but I did ask straight out if she’s poly, and she said “No, I just love two people, and I only want to love one.” She said another time I asked her (yesterday) that she now considers herself monogamous.
So it does seem as if she might want to only be with Nevermore. Then again, she may be confused out of her head and have no idea, I just don’t know.
This is her first lesbian relationship after all, and I was the first man she ever thought she could settle down with.
Strange days.

I do think she’s probably mono, probably very excited to be with Nevermore and also, possibly, keeping me around out of momentum. But I’m not sure about anything anymore, and Caro has tended to be very very irritated with me whenever I bring up how she feels or what she wants for the future, so it’s a rough deal all around.

It actually feels kinda nice.
(not that I think I have that option anymore)
I’d still understand that people need alone time sometimes, but then at least maybe we could all sleep together most of the time…
Then again, I think that Caro wants to sleep alone with Nevermore

Yeah, Nevermore should be home from school soon and we’ll hash some stuff out before I run off to my education course. I do think that we could all be cool with it being a triad, as long as all needs were met. If I’m going to be left alone whenever Caro feels like leaving my bed however, I’d like to have an assurance that I can bring someone else in. At least, I think.

Considering it.
Although I don’t plan on leaving Nevermore and I’m 99% certain that I can deal with her loving other people. Hell, fucking/making love to other people.

Thank you… that’s sorta what I’ve been feeling…
it’s always been hard for me to have a strong feeling of self-worth, I spent the formative years of my life being told I wasn’t good enough, would never be good enough, … it’s a weird world and I’m still not totally fine.
But it sure does help to have someone I love hold me and stroke my hair and tell me that I’m important to them.
And yeah… for a long time I think I’ve been clinging, trying to make sure I had a stable relationship via the imposition of rules… and I now realize that can’t work. Either everybody is free to do as they like, or there’s no deal…
Strange thing is I knew that before, now it’s just a visceral knowledge.

Actually I’m a libra.
So I have one self, it just has three different opinions on any one topic.