Help (and compassion) from SDMB polyamorists and other Dopers requested

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
81

I’m surprised at you.

Finn deserves love, but unless he can be a reciprocal partner in giving love, he’s unlikely to get it from those he does not give love to.

Saying “I love you” does not mean you love someone. Love is an act, under your will. You deserve love always, but you only deserve it from a specific person when you first are able to show them love. Being unselfish and non-possessive is the first step.

If you don’t give love to a certain person, you do not deserve love from that person. We are all deserving of love, however. Indeed, many here have shown love and compassion for Finn.

82

I think you’ll get over this faster, and come to a better resolution, when you realize that she didn’t break your heart. You did.

The truth hurts, and the truth sucks, but the truth heals.

You drove her away by your insistance thay she be something other than what she was. You could not love her as she was, for herself, you wanted her to prove something to you.

If you don’t learn this now, you are destined to go out and repeat it again and again and again. I don’t want to see that to happen to you, or anyone.

Lots of people here have been offering you comfort and sympathy, and you have been eating it up like a hamster. If that’s what you want, it’s easy enough to cry and whine and stir someone’s sympathy; but if you want True Love, you are going to have to stop whining and work for it.

“To get love, you must give love.”

What do you really want?
Do you want to be loved, or do you want to be “right?”
Do you want to be loved, or do you want sympathy?

Your choice.

83

Then why do you still hurt? You should be happy.

Or is it possible that you don’t understand the difference between love and infatuation? If you are just infatuated, then excuse me, you are acting appropriately.

I see I’m preaching to an unreceptive audience. You are not ready for what I have to offer. It’s OK. I apologise for trying to open a part of the world for you when you were not ready.
What you need now is to grieve, and learn. You are young yet, and this will heal, believe me. I’ve been there.

Some day I hope you will be able to understand what I have to say, but I was wrong. It’s not the right time for you.

I wish you comfort and peace. Excuse my harshness.

84

Love is the law, love under will.

SnakeSpirit: nevermore who I love and who loves me, who wants to be with me too, is going to be told by caro that she has to leave me, and then she’s going to.
Why the hell is it that caro, who doesn’t love unselfishly or, hell, love at all by your definition should be allowed to demand that nevermore be alone with her? Why is this my fault?

Ridiculous.
You are making things up.
Do you understand me?
You are arguing from some strange paradigm that has nothing, at all, to do with reality.
Why the hell should I sacrifice everything when carolyn won’t sacrifice a goddamn single thing?

Have you been reading this thread?
Carolyn is monogamous
What the hell worldview are you arguing from?
Yes, I wanted her to be with me, but that’s not like I asked anything of her that was insane.

and what exactly am I supposed to learn?
That I should give up all hope of happiness or getting my needs met?
that sounds like a pathology to me, not love.

Yes, I am crying and whining in order to get sympathy.
My heart isn’t breaking and I wasn’t looking for ways to fix this or ways to cope.
Spot on.

Again, what paradigm are you living in???
In what world are love and sympathy mutually exclusive?
In what world do the people who love you not have an obligation to be kind and tender and sweet to you?

I hurt because I’m going to lose nevermore too!
Because she’d like to stay with me!
Because the woman you keep telling me I"m not worthy of is going to be grasping and petty and possesive.
I’m happy and I hurt at the same damn time, because I’m human.
Will you please deal with reality now?

I will never accept that being in love means not being able to take care of your own needs ever.
Not being able to ask for whatever would make you happy.
No, and I doubt many older adults reading this would agree either.

I appreciate, if you are being honest, that you’re trying to help.

But I would also appreciate if you don’t post in my thread again.
Or do you finally wish to face reality and admit that carolyn isn’t loving me, or nevermore, anywhere close to the way you suggest?

Otherwise, I really have had enough with being blamed for everything.

Your advice is impractical and not based on any events which are actually transpiring, or which actually transpired.
I don’t know what you seek to gain here, or what you’re trying to do to me, but this has got to stop.

I have no authority, but if this is all you have to say, I would ask that you would please refrain from saying it here anymore.

85

Do you grok SnakeSpirit?
Carolyn, who you seem to believe is some fucking goddess, is going to demand that her lover, who wants to be with me give up what she wants and be monogamous with her.
Isn’t that exactly what you’re accusing me of?

86

I think you are being condescending and completely lacking in empathy with your responses. You may be trying to impart wisdom and give helpful advice, but what you’re actually doing is talking down to, insulting, and degrading FinnAgain.

I’ve read the whole thread and I have a couple of opinions too…but the major conflict all appears to have been within the last couple of weeks. You don’t go to a funeral and tell the widow, “Wow, sucks to be you, but at least Fred is with Jesus now. What?? You knew he was going to die SOME day. I’m sorry you haven’t opened your heart to Jesus enough to feel happiness at your husband’s death. I see you’re not emotionally mature enough yet to dance and rejoice while you watch your loved one lowered into the ground forever.” And you don’t tell someone who’s feeling really raw because of a breakup which has been drawn-out and painful as hell, “It’s a shame that you’re not emotionally mature enough to listen to me.”

FinnAgain, you have my sympathy. That’s all I’ll say.

87

Thank you very much.

Even now I’d do anything I could to make things work, and it’s hard but I’m accepting that carolyn simply doesn’t want me, doesn’t want to try, probably doesn’t even like me.

And it really really really sucks that I’m going to lose nevermore too. That the exact same thing that everybody is saying I did wrong, Carolyn is now doing.

nevermore spent last night in my bed, and I woke up, her body pressed against mine, to the knoweldge that as soon as Carolyn says the word… I’m never going to be able to kiss her again, never hold her again, never make love to her again.

Maybe I should just make a clean break with all of this.

88

Had to tell nevermore that any romantic part of our relationship is over. I just can’t keep sleeping next to her, I just can’t… not knowing that at the drop of a hat Carolyn is going to tell her to leave me. Not living on borrowed time.

Caro never wanted me alone, not from the first day she met me.
Not at any point. She would agree to be alone, but she never wanted to be monogamous with me.
And as soon as nevermore was her girlfriend, she chose to have her alone, to be monogamous.

She’s not poly. She’s not really bi, although she does like straight sex to a degree.

She’s wanted to be alone with a girl since before she met nevermore or me, she just didn’t have the courage to do it.
Now she has the courage to be true to herself.
And I am happy for them.
And I guess it’s impossible to hold on to a lesbian ~wry smiles~
Still sucks.

Evidently caro had a lot to figure out and was going through a very confusing part of her life.
Makes it a bit easier for me not to be bitter.

and yes, I know all these things because I’ve been told.

89

evidently mistaken

it seems I misunderstood nevermore.
Carolyn isn’t a lesbian, but didn’t know how important nevermore was to her until she had to leave…
but I don’t think I buy that.
she had to leave nevermore a good few times…
I think that either she’s deciding on her sexuality or always loved nevermore in a deeper, more life-long way than she did me…

She never wanted to be alone with me, but she does with nevermore. And I guess that too doesn’t matter…

but yeah…
picking scabs…

It just doesn’t matter.

Just because of the person I am, I always want total knowledge, but that’s impossible here.
Giraffe is right…
the reasons don’t matter, the cognitive dissonance doesn’t matter, my desire to still make things work doesn’t matter.
Things are just over, over, over.

Time to really get over things and move on.
Just hard not to wonder.

(just wanted to clear up the confusion, don’t want to be posting things that aren’t true)

90

Yep.

91

Thanks everybody for your help, it really did get me through a very very tough time in my life.

I’m still not anywhere near 100%, but I feel like living again.

And all wishes and desires and hopes aren’t going to do me any good.
It’s just so hard to move on and accept that someone who meant the world to you doesn’t love you anymore.
That they want to be alone with someone else.
That even though you’d do everything in your power to make them happy, that you respect and adore them, it’s not enough.
Just sucks.

But I guess it’ll happen to me a few more times before I find the right one for me.
Such is life.

Thanks again everybody.

92

Sooo, what you’re saying, snakespirit, is that we all deserve love, but only from people to whom we show love, but those people don’t deserve love from us till they’ve shown it to us. It sounds remarkably like nobody ever deserves love, frankly. It also sounds like you’re on quite the more-enlightened-than-thou high horse, which certainly doesn’t make people more responsive to whatever garbled message you’re trying to put across.

Frankly, I find the world a far better place when nobody worries about earning or deserving love. To be quite honest with you, the times in my life when I’ve needed love most have been the times when I was scared and selfish and mean and been least capable of showing love to others. Thank god the people in my life didn’t have some jacked-up ledger to decide whether or not I deserved their love.

93

SnakeSpirit What in the hell are you talking about? To be loved, we must go The Giving Tree route and sacrifice everything we have to unappreciative bastards? Love is a choice?

I say, now that Caro has made it clear that it’s over between the two of you and that she won’t allow you and Nevermore to make love again anyway, do what she has forbidden. “Finish sex” (what’s wrong with orgasm, ejaculate, come?) inside Nevermore. (Just don’t post about it. Caro may read it and become rather angry with Nevermore)

As I see things, Caro is a confused woman with many issues. She has had all the power in the relationship for quite a while, and has used it to get what she wants without caring what you and Nevermore wanted. I doubt that she was intentionally cruel and controlling, it just worked out that way.

I’m reminded of the story The Princess Who Stood On Her On Two Feet. You seem willing to make great sacrifices for her. She seems unworthy of them. But, as Caro isn’t intentionally doing this or without good qualities, Nevermore has agreed to make yet another painful sacrifice.

94

I don’t mean to be “holier than anyone.” Sometimes I’m not good at expressing myself to people. I pretty much stand by everything I said, and some of it was “tough love” (facing the truth), but it was all obtained through decades of mistakes, healing, and figuring out the right way to do it and figuring out what love is.

I am poly. I love many people, to the degree I would put my life on the line for them. Not all of those relationships include sex. None of them are possessive. I never go through the angst that is paining Finn right now, and I’d like to se him move past that. I went through it several times, and had no one to show me the way; although Michael (whom I love eternally) told me the truth back when I was in my mid 20’s. He was a better communicator, and knew when to stop. Sorry, I’m still learning.

One of the GREAT MISTAKES of our common era is the inability of most humans to separate lust, possession, infatuation, longing, desire, selfishness and other similar ‘feelings’ from love.

I have learned what love is. It IS a choice, it doesn’t happen to you (that’s lust and infatuation). It requires unconditional acceptance, even if the person chooses something that is not in their best interest, or yours, you may disagree, you may try to get them so see another side, but ultimately you want their freedom (to choose their own path), and their ultimate happiness.

Sometimes love even means letting someone go to make mistakes so they can live out their path, and learn effectively on their own. Sometimes love means letting a person hurt themselves to learn. When you love someone enough that you are willing to accept their pain of making a wrong choice that hurts you as well, you really love them.

Not that this is always the best path. Often enough we can get out with just minor injuries, and rarely, with none at all.

I wish I was more erudite. Wish I could explain it better. It took me a long time to learn what love was all about (and I’m still learning, still a student, not an expert), and it took a lot of pain.

I have to believe that somehow my relationships each were a timely and pertinant lesson in achieving my goal. I think the highest human quality is loving without attachment; loving with no expectations for self. What other animal is capable of this???

Sure. I still lust, I still get infatuated, and all of the above. Difference is, I no longer get hurt. Learning how to love, and choosing to love eliminated the pain involved. I never again have to be where Finn was (is?). Thank God/Goddess/Spirit. I can love someone enough that I can let them go.

I wish you all love on your paths, and happiness. If you ever need me, you know how to find me. I’ll listen, and offer advice as I see fit (I won’t coddle you, though). I’ll talk, and won’t even require you to listen.

I give you the gift of choice.

SnakeSpirit

95

I don’t know what to think on that one. Evidently even as nevermore was telling me that she wanted to be with me and wishes Caro would let her, she was telling Caro that she loved the idea of being alone with her.
Mindfuck, anybody?

But they’re both good people.
I think all of us were confused, and did the best we could, and ended up causing a lot of shit in the meantime.
Caro wasn’t adverse to compromises most of the time, and she tried her best. I tried my best, and unfortunately was difficult some of the time.
I think maybe all of us fucked up, share some ‘blame’.
But there’s no real point.
The future goes on, I have to take care of myself, and whatever the future might bring, I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.
And of course I’ll always have a place in my heart for my water brothers.
But who knows what place that’ll be, for anybody, ever.
Never the same river twice.
Planning sucks.

96

It’s hard to get past bargaining and depression and into acceptance.
I can’t help but hope that some day, if I change enough, if the situation does, we might have a chance again.
I don’t even know why I’m feeling this way.
Mornings suck.

97

Bullshit. “Good people” don’t manipulate others and try to play games with their emotions.

Personally, I think you should both tell Caro where to go. What on earth do the two of you see in her? The more I’m reading this, the more I think she needs a good verbal ass-reaming.

98

I agree with Guin.

But I also know that the most charismatic people are usually the ones least likely to be able to have a good long-term relationship. I wouldn’t be surprised if Caro started pushing nevermore into the same corner you were in. In fact it sounds like she already is if she’s going to demand nevermore break up with you.

It takes maturity to choose comfortable steadiness over unstable but great passion, and nevermore probably isn’t at that point. Sorry Finn.

Be glad you didn’t have kids with her.

99

I’d like to believe that she was confused and did’t purposefully manipulate me, I could be wrong.

I’m not even sure what I see in her, saw in her I guess.
I have, of course, been trying to not think about that too much recently though.
I just don’t know… I know that she’s one of the most gorgeous women I’ve ever seen, let alone had the pleasure of snuggling. I know that, some of the time at least, being around her was wonderful, I know that she used to be sweet and kind to me before she started allllllllways being habitually upset at me, I know she’s brilliant…

And I know that she does feel bad about how things went down. Not bad enough to try to work at anything, as she’s fallen out of love with me and believes that we were incompatible from the start. nevermore also believes that she and I could never have worked.

And, I can usually be pretty brutal and effective with words… but aside from snapping at her once, I’ve never tried to hurt her. I told her what she’d done was morally reprehensible and that she shouldn’t play with people’s lives like that… but then I had to apologize the next day because, well, I felt like shit for making her feel bad.
If someone is going to kick her around some with words, it won’t be me I’m afraid.

I’m not totally sure of this one…
I know that nevermore says she’d like to be ‘allowed’ to be with me too, and that she’s as poly as they come… but I also know that she loves/wants to be with Caro more than me, so it’s not a huge sacrifice.
I also think that nevermore would put up with less than I did.
I mean, caro and I argued a lot, but I tried, and tried, and tried with all my heart.
She was still mean and very biting with me a lot… nevermore probably wouldn’t let that slide.

And yeah… I mean… part of the trouble now is that I feel so bad for how I treated Caro while I was with her. I think that most of our problems arose because of this threesome and our constant arguing over it… although to be fair, nevermore thinks the phrase “we mostly argued over the threesome” is a scapegoat.
I’m not so sure.
Yes, we argued about other things, but once Caro has a grudge, she never really lets it go. Once she was annoyed at me all of our interactions were a ‘wrong word’ away from fighting.
And yeah, I was stressed.
Not the least because I kept seeing these things that didn’t jive, kept pointing out discrepencies between what she said and what she did, or between various things she said… and each time she made me feel like shit and called me insecure.

Insecure and treating her badly, for instance, by thinking that one day she might want nevermore more than me and want to be with her.

No, she probably isn’t.
I don’t know if I’m even there…
I know that at first, in the golden glow of newness, Caro and I were pretty good together.
And then the day after valentine’s day she brought nevermore into our bed, and things kinda went downhill from there.

Of that I am exceedingly glad.
Though I tend to doubt that she would have ever gotten to that point with me…
She recently told me that my ‘dreams’ are not her dreams, that she doesn’t know if she ever wants to settle down… I was kind of taken aback, as this was the women who, for some time, was busy telling me that she wanted to marry me and have my children.

And there were differences of course… nevermore and I are both somewhat anti-faith, or at least anti-religion.

Carolyn believes that the ancient egyptian goddess of cats chose her in a past life, which she remembers, and asked her to be her servant throughout time. That Bast helps her when she’s down and gives her advice and wants her to do certain things. That she can remember her past lives, and has a ‘bloodlust’ in this life because she was a man eating tiger in a previous life. That she’s been dead before and knows how it feels. That there was a male ‘father-god’ who banished her because he didn’t love her. That she can effect the world around her by belief alone. ~sighs~
Sounds worse than it is I’m sure.

I never really had a problem with her believing that, I never would have told her that she couldn’t, but whooooooa boy did sparks fly whenever I let her engage me in a discussion on religion or faith.
I’m not sure how well nevermore will do with that issue, except by trying not to talk about it in depth.

I’m not sure how the two of them will do at all… if Caro could tell me “You’re the most perfect person I can permit myself to imagine.” “I want to be with you forever.” “I’d never want anybody other than you.” That she wanted to have children with me, that she’d do whatever it took to make our relationship work, that she needed me around to ‘keep her honest’, that we were great together, that I was her compliment… if she could say those sorts of things even while thinking that she and I weren’t going to have any future, some of them a matter of days before she decided that she needed nevermore more than me, hell, didn’t even like me anymore… well… I just don’t know if she’s changed that much that she can be honest with nevermore, or herself for that matter.

But I’m trying to wish them both well, even as I’m a bitter bastard.
Carolyn says that the two of them have a deeper connection than she ever had with me, and so I guess the right thing for me to do, always, was to step aside and let them see what they have.
I just wish that Caro had been honest with me from the start, evidently she never even wanted a serious relationship, she only wanted sex.
Neglected to inform me of that fact though…
guess she changed her mind maybe… who the fuck knows.

Strange days, I still don’t get what the fuck went down or why, but I’m trying to move on from bargaining-depression to acceptance. It’s slow going but I’m at least moving forward most of the time.

100

Thanks for responding, Finn.

Doesn’t matter whether it’s a huge sacrifice or not, it’s still Caro calling the first shot right out the gate. For someone with control issues, as she seems to have, that’s more than a foot in the door, thats a whole freakin’ leg.

She must be extremely charismatic.

Those are the basic techniques of a control freak, I hate to tell ya. Making issues they want to control into a supersensitive issue, laying on a guilt trip as a means of avoidance, trying to make you doubt your own motivations so you won’t bring it up, being extremely changeable about their attitudes and goals in the relationship. Did she do the ignore you most of the day then latch onto you suddenly thing too? That’s a classic sign. Also, grudgeholding in the middle of an ongoing relationship is just a means to hold power.

With nevermore, it would probably be more along the lines of playing up her own vunerablity, how much she needs her, how scared she gets at the thought of losing her, etc.

At least your instincts were good if you kept seeing discrepencies there. But don’t blame yourself for everything that went wrong. The underhanded techniques of a controlling person are almost impossible for an inexperienced person to overcome, let alone recognize. You just get sucked in too hard and too fast.

People believe all sorts of odd things, but did you notice how every bit of that is geared towards her being extra-special and not accountable to anyone? Oh sure she says Bast tells her to do things, but it’s not thru an outside source like a priestess or anything is it? If it’s not there’s no check in place there to let her know if it’s her own mind or not.

It’s not really a real problem or anything, except she sounds rather fluid in her goals and desires and perceptions, and so that set-up is probably not helping her NOT be so controlling. Really, it would be whatever issues behind it that lead her be controlling, nevertheless, that belief system doesn’t sound very helpful.

It’s not just the right thing to do, I think it’s best for the sake of your sanity. I seriously doubt her deep connection to nevermore lasts beyond a honeymoon period. People who have the fluidity of mind as she does really need the high of new emotions, relationships, conflicts, etc. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if she came back after a while, just because controlling you has been something of a challenge. If she does I hope you remember everyone deserves to be loved, but not everyone deserves to be loved by you.