Help Me Buy A Decent Guitar and Amp for $700 or less!

Cafe Society
41

Yeah, yeah - you forget I have a day job?! :wink: :smiley:

You’re getting too caught up in this. Bottom line is that you want to have gear that keeps you playing. The tube vs. solid state issue is one you should focus on, in all seriousness, in a few years after you’ve played consistently enough to have your OWN opinion about why tubes, or certain effects, etc are right for you.

Effects loop - think of it this way: putting an effect in between your guitar and the amp increases the amount of distortion going into the tone. If you are playing boosters, dirtboxes, or other effects that play with the distortion aspect of your tone, you typically want them in that spot.

If your effect is NOT supposed to affect the level of distortion, put it in the loop. So if you want a truly clean boost, no overdrive, put it in the loop. Time effects? Reverb–>Chorus –> Delay –> Echo? Loop. Phase or Flanging? Loop. Octavers? You get the picture (to be clear, for black belt tube users, they often put those effects in their direct chain because that extra overdrive sounds cool - but they are playing through BIG Marshalls that are nothing like the amp you are contemplating).

That’s a long winded way of saying: You pick where an effect goes based on the type of effect. If your small amp as a loop - cool; most don’t and can’t deal with effects well as a result. Yay you.

Digital effects vs. analog - again, feels like over-thinking. That stuff will start to matter when you hear that it is starting to matter. Do some research - go to places even like <gasp> Harmony Central, or read comments on Amazon or something, and get a feel for what the basic POV is about the options. If you aren’t hearing a consistent issue that raises your eyebrows - e.g., there was a small Marshall I was interested in for a bit, until a quick check online showed a consistent complaint about heat issues cracking the circuit board - you’re probably going to be okay. If you personally like the clean, hard rock and metal tones you are getting when you check out the gear yourself at the store, and the price is in your range - go for it.

42

I also say don’t worry too much about effects, you just like most others, will change order, gain structure, fx loop not fx loop etc until you find what you like. There are as many schools of thought on this as there are guitarists, almost.

An example. I was on a festival a few years ago and spent a few hours talking to this fantastic guitar tech who was working for the Indigo Girls at the time. We both work directly with artists and were exchanging stories. She quit working for Wilco because both Nels and Tweedy were constantly changing their pedalboards around, so much so that she could never keep up with maintenance and could not tell if they were working correctly. Those guys have about 60 collective years of playing and still don’t know exactly what they want out of a pedalboard, you have some time to fool around with it as well.

There are really two rules, questions really.

Do I like how it sounds?

Does it damage my stuff?

OTOH there is a lot of good advice to be had here, in regards to effects, just keep the two questions in mind.

Imho of course

Capt

43

Squeegee…oh no, I’m definitely decided on a tube amp. Which one, given my limited finances and wattage worries (should be the name of an electric guitar-based reality show, btw) I am still waffling on, but I’m definitely getting one. I am merely conceding the point that I will want effects someday, probably sooner than later, and am sifting advice on the how’s/why’s/when’s of using them, and how using digital effects might otherwise “ruin” that tube sound. I am trying to do everything at once, I suppose. I’m not a completely shitty player…been noodling since I was 14, 30 years ago. But I’ve fallen so far off the map by not being in the game so to speak that the technology has literally passed me by, and I have already admitted I have never owned a tube amp.

Hence, all my questions, trepidations, etc…directed at YOU guys!

:slight_smile:

Yo, fuck yo day job!

:wink:

I appreciate this. You have a consistent history on here of offering reliable, good advice and I appreciate your responding. Maybe I am overthinking this. I really want to jump into the deep end with both feet and start seriously playing and studying again, and part of that is understanding how the sound technology works. I’m afraid of cutting off my nose to spite my face, as it were, with digital versus analog effects being used in conjunction with a tube-driven amp. Ah ye gods…I suppose I am complicating this by wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth…I suppose I just need to get the amp and guitar first before trying to net that whole other kettle of fish, Chachi.

Aye aye, Captain. That’s sound advice. I think I am letting my excitement for getting some decent equipment for the first time in my life color my worries about extraneous bullshit that I can and should figure out later.

I should probably worry about building up my calluses first…and then perhaps working out my pinkie finger, which I always avoided using when I could get away with it…

44

Did I really just say “whole other kettle of fish, Chachi?”

45

I recently ditched my hybrid Marshall Valvestate amp for a full tube amp. I wound up with a Laney Cub 12R. The 12 means that it has a 12" speaker, the R is reverb (digital). Three preamp tubes, two power amp tubes and it has an effects loop.

One of the niftiest things about this is the two inputs on it. One 15 watt input, and one 0.75 watt. That means you can scale down to less than one watt for home use and plug in to 15 watts for more power at rehearsals or even small gigs.

A very affordable amp, and very easy to get good sounds from. The earlier batches had a reputation for blowing a thermal switch or something like that once in a while, but I think that is fixed now. I’ve had no problems with mine so far.

As for digital effects in tube amps - I really can’t say that I’ve noticed that they degrade the experience of the tube amp. The quality of the effect, analog or digital, is what counts. Almost every one uses digital delays, for instance. Even tone masters like Mark Knopfler, Joe Bonamassa, David Gilmour etc. so I don’t quite buy this digital-in-fx-chain-ruins-amp-purity thing.

46

:wink: Too funny. Indeed you did - I still don’t know where that came from when I posted it in the old thread.

It sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Get a decent amp, either with on board digital effects or with a bit of $$ leftover to buy a digital effects box like a POD. Also buy a decent overdrive/distortion. Play it as a simple tube amp with a dirtbox kicker, and also play it with a POD and all the effects you want dialed in. Live with it for a few months and see where things go from there. It’s all good.

47

I have a sec, so I am going to do a bit more of a brain dump; hope that’s okay.

Regarding a tube amp, to be clear: “tube” has become a buzzword that every maker wants to claim. But there are varying degrees to which the amp is actually driven by tubes and delivers a true tube-level of responsiveness, as I describe in the older thread (no, I am not going to refer to it as the Chachi thread ;))

For amps in your price range, there are a few that claim to have a “real tube” in their preamp or some such. I suspect that they have some tube-sounding overdrive in the tone because of that, but I wouldn’t expect a lot more than that.

The Holy Trinity of a tube amp - preamp, power amp, speaker - with point-to-point construction, etc. - is now typically found with the boutique amps. There is a little Epiphone amp that was a very simple circuit and quickly became a hobbyist amp to modify and mess with.

The biggest issue with these super-simple tube amps is that they aren’t very versatile - by definition, you are trading away features to keep the circuit simple. I don’t think they make sense for what you are trying to do. So if you get a tube amp that comes with a bunch of features, even digital effects on board, you aren’t getting a true, simple tube amp. Now - will it have a tubey tone, and perhaps better responsiveness vs. a digital amp? Mostly likely if the tubes are truly a central part of the circuit, not a cute add-on so they can claim them.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying: Something like the Blackstar is not the same as an old Fender Champ, so expecting it to be that way would not be realistic, but it does sound like it combines a solid tone and a variety of cool features that make it more useful than a simple-tube-circuit amp anyway.

48

Hey, squeegee - any reason you wouldn’t strongly recommend a Blues Jr for FGiE? They were hugely popular for a while, so there are plenty out there; they have a true-tube circuit, take pedals well. If I were to pick a recent Fender model that was close to their original amps and amp circuits, it would be the one that came to mind…don’t they sell used for a few hundred bucks?

49

The Blackstar amp I’m considering only has two tubes. I have to assume that is a cost issue. I’ve looked at some “low end” (as there’s really no such thing) Mesa Boogies and they often have six or more even in their 20w amps. But they are hellaciously expensive.

Honest question: are more tubes better? Is there a general rule of thumb as to how many is enough for the preamp and power sections? Does it really matter?

50

The more simple the amp is, the fewer tubes it needs. As you start to add tone controls, effects, etc., It needs more of them.

I have one of the Epiphone Valve Jr. amps with two tubes. It did not sound bad, but as WordMan advised, it wasn’t very versatile. It had one control: Volume. If they had added an active tone control or master volume, or anything, it would have needed more tubes or transistors. So, it has pure tube tone at low cost, but nothing else. I’ve since converted it to a standalone reverb tank. It’s two tubes are now completely occupied running the reverb tank.

In the world of “tube tone”, I personally think nothing sounds better than the simplest class-a amps, but they are all about as versatile as that Valve Jr. When you plug a guitar into them, they usually sound very nice, but the tone you get out of it at first is pretty much the tone you’re going to get. You can turn up to get some distortion, but to get them to produce overdrive, they have to be pretty loud. Even my 15W Decca combo with a single 12" speaker is almost as loud as a drum set before you get any overdrive. My Silvertone 1484 is at club volumes before it sounds really good. Neither of these amps have a master volume. Conversely, you can get nice sounds out of my wife’s MusicMan 112RD at reasonable volumes, because it has a master volume control. It never quite gets the same vibe that the other two do at loud volumes, though. So I keep them.

Since you’re worried about the sleeping kids, I personally think whatever amp you get needs a master volume, or a headphone out. But, those Blackstar amps look pretty sweet, and if I was in the market for a practice amp, I’d probably be deciding between it and VHT’s hand-wired combo in the same price range. Neither has master volume, but they both seem to have half power settings. That will help some, but:

The watts rating of an amp is almost meaningless when trying to figure out how loud it’s going to be. A 50W amp isn’t really much louder than a 5W amp through the same cabinet. The Valve Jr (5W). through the Silvertone’s cabinet had the same problem as the Silvertone head does (60W if you listen to the designer, 35-45W if you listen to contemporary techs). Once the Valve Jr. began to generate nice overdrive, it was loud enough for the drummer to hear it.

Just in case you’re interested, a tube count of each of these amps:
Silvertone: 7 tubes (two power tubes, reverb and tremolo circuits on this one)
Decca: 5 tubes (tremolo circuit, only one power tube)
MusicMan: 2 tubes (hybrid amp: SS preamp, tube power amp)
Epiphone: 2 tubes (one pre, one power)

Of those, the amps with lots of tubes in the preamp sound better (to me), and can do more. A G-K bass amp I bought recently with a 3 tube preamp section and a solid state power amp sounds awesome for guitar, and is more versatile than any of the above amps. It was also a lot more expensive.

Also, preamp tubes almost never wear out. I’ve never had an amp repairman think they needed to be switched, at least. Even power tubes can last for ages. I had the Silvertone serviced recently, and the amp guy said that the 10 year old power tubes were still going strong. Even when I replaced the originals 10 years ago, they didn’t have any problems. I was just young, and wanted to experiment.

51

And they sound like moist ass: nasally, high gain crap tone.

That’s what moist ass sounds like.

52

Thanks for the response, scabpicker, and thanks for everyone else’s. This is turning into a secondary education!

And moist ass…

:slight_smile:

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WordMan: I’d thought about mentioning it, but assumed FG wanted a ‘hotter’ amp out the door. A Blues Junior IMO is a great, great amp, and I love mine. That said, it’s not a heavy rawk tone amp without a pedal behind it to beat the crap out of the input stages. But if you add that (like the Proco RAT that you and I both own), then it freaking sings like a mofo. Seriously, it’s the shit when you do that. And even when you don’t, it sounds so sooo classic, just low/medium-hot. And the cleans - OMFG the cleans! If Fender doesn’t do another thing right, ever, they can surely make an amp that has cleans that are the lushest thing you have ever heard, ever. Fender clean tones will make you absolutely weep.

OTOH, my Egnater Tweaker makes me stupid-happy with it’s classic-rock tone out of the box, pedal-less. I’ve found myself idly playing music I hate (can you say Foreigner’s Hot Blooded?) because that tone was all there.

I love my Blues Junior, but I’m not sure it’s where FG wants to head. But I’m not him. FG: do check out the simplest, best damned amp, remade like Leo Fender would have in 1960 if you’re curious. Blues Junior. It was (may still be?) the most popular all-tube amp in the world, for good reason. And there’s likely a zillion used ones around to be had at a good price.

54

In terms of # of tubes - what scabpicker said.

In terms of Mesa/Boogie - well, here’s my story: I had my kids, and they were old enough for me to actually have a guitar out and play. I found a drummer in town - a brilliant one, who had played with a number of bands on Oldies tours, like the Shangri-La’s and Lou Christie. We found a bassist and set up a gig. We played the first set and this other guy came up and said You guys sound great! but then turned to me and said But your tone totally sucks!! I had been so pleased - I had gotten this Mesa Boogie amp and thought I was rockin’. I was thinking Who is this guy? but then I find out he’s a top producer - platinum albums, produced and co-wrote one of Rolling Stone’s top 500 albums of all time (Tricky’s Maxinquaye),working with a bunch of amazing people.

He decides to help me out, so we go to this top amp place in NYC - Ultra Sound, which is a band practice space that folks like Bon Jovi and Aerosmith use before they tour - but that has practice rooms stocked with multi-thousand $$ amps that you can play for the price of renting the room - how cool is that? The owner knows of my producer friend and so treats us right and explains to us about amps, the need for a simple circuit, etc. And how Mesa’s stink, to him, because they have so many extra features that they totally compromise the tone of the tubes. He pulls one out, and compares it to a couple of amazing amps - a Trainwreck and a Komet 60. Omigod - done. end of story. I’ve never looked at a Boogie the same way again…

So - yeah… I guess moist ass just about covers it.

55

Dude, the conversion went OK? You owe us a conversion report, bub. I’m half seriously (well, half-half serious) considering doing my own. It sounds like a great mod, and I WANT a standalone reverb so bad for my effects loop. Details, man!