Guitar players: Help me buy a new half-stack

Cafe Society
1

So I’ve been out of gigging for about 15yrs, got rid of all my stuff, had kids, career etc… you know the drill. Now life has slowed down and I’m in my permanent residence for the foreseeable future and decided the time has come to get back on it.

My genres for the band are punk, hardcore, metal, metalcore etc…

My old half was a 100W Marshall Gold if I recall, basically the lowest end they made. It struggled to keep up with the rest of band in practice. I had a few Boss stomp boxes (HyperMetal anyone?) but otherwise it was a very basic set-up.

After downsizing I bought a Line 6 Toneport UX2 which I’ve loved as it lets me have any assortment of effects, tones, cabs etc… that I could want and for very very low cost. Obviously you can’t gig through a computer though right?

Because of my experience with the Toneport I picked up a 75W Line 6 Spider IV last fall to kind of get me going again. I chose this amp because it is very similar to the Toneport in terms of amp modeling and flexibility of sound. I happen to like the tone of the Line 6 gear.

So now I’m jumping into a punk band that’s already established and plays out regularly. This means the time has come to buy another half so I can practice with them and gig. That’s the backstory.

I was hoping to get the Line 6 Spider IV HD150 here.

I want it because: 1) I already know the models, 2)can find my way around on it, 3) Can use the footboard/pedal I bought with the 75W and 4) I won’t need to purchase individual stompboxes and deal with all of those headaches (sculpting the tone I want, carting the shit around, hooking it all up, batteries, etc…). This rig is $700 which is right around where I’m trying to keep things.

The problem is that I keep reading about how modeling amps suck, the Line 6 sounds “digital” at high volumes and the tone sucks. This bums me out because I love the convenience and cost here. None of the music I’ll be playing will have subtleties or nuances that could be missed. But if I’m at high volume I don’t want the bottom to fall out. Also, I’d imagine that I won’t be cranking this thing at gigs and it’ll be mic’d at low volume right?

So what are your thoughts on modelling amps? Any experience with this rig? What would you recommend instead of this? I’m torn because like I said the cost is right and that will keep my wife off my back.

ETA: If I buy this rig does the Line 6 logo scream “bush league” to other guitarists? Just curious.

2

First, I’m trying to come to grips with the idea that a 100w tube amp struggled to keep up with the practice volume of your old band. Can you still hear anything? :slight_smile:

Second, the band you are about to join already has a PA and has a preferred way of using it, right? If their normal method involves low stage volume with all backline amps mic’d, then you need a low watt amp, whether a modeler or a straight-ahead tube amp. If they only run vocals though their PA, then you need enough watts to project to the audience.

I use a Line 6 Pod XT Live modeling pedal board directly into a PA for some work I do, and a low watt Fender (Blues Junior) for other stuff and playing and at home. I don’t think there’s anything bush league about Line 6, but I am most definitely not one of the cool kids.

3

Totally agree.

I just got off a train and have to focus on work, but frankly, I would avoid a half-stack. Per Crotalus the days of huge amps behind you producing all the sound for you has changed over the past 15 years. I use a 40 watt tube amp (40w on a tube amp is probably close to 75 for a solid state - long story) and rarely put the amp above 3.

Line 6’s can be totally fine you - especially if you are just getting a feel for this band. I would be very surprised of a 75w L6, coupled with proper use of a PA, can’t get you where you need.

Must run…good luck!

4

I’m one of those people who doesn’t like modeling amps very much, but can’t really explain it. Other people seem to like them fine, but while playing through them, it doesn’t respond quite right to me. It’s a similar feeling to playing through modeled amps in GarageBand. When I listen to the results, it sounds fine. When I’m playing the track, it feels weird.

I also don’t think you need a 4x12 cab. I’d recommend a 2x12 combo if they’re really loud, but one of my bandmates gets by just fine with a Peavey Classic 30, which is a 1x12. Most clubs will mic your amp, and the sound guy will usually complain that the guitars are too loud, no matter what you do.

But if you buy the Line 6 anyway, think it sounds just fine, and someone acts like you’re “bush league” because of your equipment: flip 'em the bird and move on.

5

Primarily you need an amp with digital xlr out. That can feed a raw signal to the PA. They don’t want your EQ signal. The sound on stage is different from what it sounds like coming from the PA.

I’d suggest the 30W Egnater Rebel-30 MKII 30-Watt Tube Head
30W, 2-channel All-tube Guitar Amp Head with 6V6 and EL84 tubes

I think thats more than enough power. This head has XLR for the PA.

pair it with a cabinet.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Rebel30MkII

6

Chicago’s lead guitarist Keith Howland plays Egnater amps. He talks about the Rebel 20 in this clip. Same head as the Rebel-30.

There several more reviews on youtube.

7

All good points but 2 things that have been overlooked:

  1. I need volume for practice, not for the gig, which will be mic’d, PA etc… Practicing in a small storage unit with a loud drummer requires cranking up to be heard unfortunately. I need one rig I can use in both practice and gig.

2). The low cost of effects processing. With the Line 6 stuff I can get pretty a pretty much infinite range of sound/effects if needed. True, right now I only use super hot distortion, but don’t want to be limited to that. With the Line 6 setup it allows for alot of experimentation without needing to buy new pedals.

Thoughts on these two points?

8

On the first point, I am not a good source, because I don’t think I (or the drummer) would last very long in a band that practiced loud. Another way of saying that is that I wouldn’t play in a band that practiced loud, or with a drummer who insisted on practicing loud. YMMV

On the modeling question, I agree with you. As I said, I use a Line 6 Pod XT Live, which has amp and pedal modeling that is good enough for me. I play that directly into the PA, no guitar amp at all. scabpicker mentioned above that he doesn’t like playing with a modeler, and I understand why. There is a slight feeling of diconnectedness with modeling amps and pedals that is not quite the same as playing through an amp. The tone may be perfect, sounding exactly like the amp being modeled, but the touch sensitivity is not quite there. Someone described it as being like great sex, but with a condom. For most things that I do with my Line 6, that doesn’t matter. If you are comfortable with modeling, go for it. The versatility is a huge plus for future changes in taste.

9

I’ll chime in, as probably the only over-40 guitar player on the boards who uses a half stack. :smiley:

Observations in bullet point format, as I write coherent paragraphs for a living and I’m off the clock here:

  • Great thing about a head-and-cab format is versatility. I use a Mesa/Boogie Mark III head. I have a 4x12 cabinet that I use for rehearsal and un-miked or outdoor gigs, and a 1x12 that I can use for gigs with full PA. Good-sounding 1x12 and 2x12 cabinets are pretty cheap, which means buying a head doesn’t mean you’re married to a half-stack format.

  • Line 6 makes some good-sounding products. IMHO, the Spider IV is not one of them. Though it’s been out of production for a while, the Line 6 HD147 head is available cheaply on the used market. It’s much, much better-sounding than the Spider series, even the new “tube power section by Bogner” Spider HD100.

  • Line 6 does scream “bush league” to me. Like many gigging musicians, I form quick first impressions of bands based on their backline, and right or wrong, they are based in long years of experience seeing live bands and auditioning musicians for my own projects. When I see a guitarist set up a Line 6 amp onstage, I assume I’m about to hear a cheesy cover band or a horrible metal band. Having said that, do you care if I think you look bush league? :slight_smile:

10

Well, the 4x12 cab will let you push a lot of air, but it’s a lot of cab to tote around. I don’t think you’ll need that much unless you’re playing with another guitarist that’s running through a 4x12. (see below for a more firm explanation)

I’m probably more picky about effects than I am amps, so it’s probably not for me. However, you aren’t me, if you like how it sounds and plays, you should probably get the head.

I started off thinking that this comparison was unfair to sex with a condom (hey, it’s still sex, right?), but now I am not sure. If you gave me a choice of either only having sex with a condom or only playing through a modeling rig for the rest of my life, I’d have to think hard about it.

Hey, my bass rig never gets past 4 on the master, and I’ve been asked to turn down when competing with a Dual Showman through an Ampeg 4x12 and a Twin at the same time. Half stacks just aren’t that much louder than a good 2x12 (I’ve had an Ampeg 2x12 combo that Marshall half stacks couldn’t compete with in a volume war), and I don’t think they’re usually needed. :wink:

This is probably the right answer, though. You probably won’t need a 4x12 for anything but an outdoor show, and you can rent or borrow it if you don’t already have it in the closet. Flexibility is the best.

11

Just remembered that my old half was a 100W Peavy 4x12. The other guy had the Marshall and it crushed my peavy in volume for some reason.

Probably won’t go for the L6 now. Bummer. Pretty cheap.

12

What prompted the decision? The bush league thing?

13

That was just the thing that tipped me over the edge. Many reviews make mention of the sound not being very good which got me 80% of the way there.

I do have a 75W Spider iv combo that works fine, but I do notice that if I turn it up “loud” the bottom drops out, though I’m not sure thats what people are referring too with the sound quality.

14

What’s the word on this one? Is it a good price?

https://spacecoast.craigslist.org/msg/4825255821.html

15

Just thinking about transporting your rig, would two 2x12 cabinets work as well as one 4x12?

16

It looks like a decent price to me, provided it’s all in good condition.

If so, then I would happily play through it as a backline, but I wouldn’t want to move it. :slight_smile:

17

Most of Bugera’s line is clones (made in China by Behringer) of famous amps. Keep in mind that, despite what the seller says, that model is a clone of a Peavey 5150 II, not a Mesa Rectifier. That means killer crunch, and so-so clean tones. Depending how heavy and/or grimy your punk band is, it would probably sound great for your needs.

Early Bugeras famously had QC issues, including a tendency to burst into flame during use. :eek:

By all accounts, that’s been worked out, and they now represent serious value of the money.

18

Ok, I’m starting to home in on something. It looks like the Marshall DSL100H head is pretty nice for a reasonable price. But I’m struggling with the cab.

This is the DSL100H played through a 1960 4x12. - YouTube

It sounds great but most of the stacks package the 100 with an MX412A, which by alot of accounts is not a great sounding cab. The 1960 is another $800 though and I can’t afford that. I can get the head and the MX412 for $1100 locally.

Can someone help me understand why the MX 412 would sound so much different than the 1960? Would I even notice a difference in my genre (punk/metal/hardcore)?

I don’t want to buy something that is sufficient for right now, I want something I won’t want to replace in a couple years as the band evolves or I jump out into a different genre.

19

Well, the cabinets have completely different speakers in them. I’d say that’s the main difference in their sound.

If I were buying instead of you, and those were the choices, I’d go with the Bugera. The 5150 is a truly awesome amp, IMHO. A copy would probably sound just as good.

20

What Scabpicker said.

A little googling shows that the MX 412 comes equipped with 4 Celestion G12E-60 speakers, which presumably are a budget speaker in the Celestion line; while the 1960B seen in the video packs 4 G12T-75 speakers. The differences between the sounds of different guitar speakers are often very pronounced, whether you’re playing clean or distorted.

As an example, here’s a video comparing the sound of two cabinets, one loaded with Celestion “Greenbacks” and the other with the G12T75 speakers found in the 1960 B:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk9nagziS-Q

Big difference, right? And those are just two of many speakers made by Celestion - one of many speaker manufacturers. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_speaker

(E.T.F. notes that Warehouse Guitar Speakers is another notable supplier)
For a description of what people are listening for when they audition guitar speakers, I’d refer you to this old article:
http://www.webervst.com/bt9908.htm

You’ll notice that lots of guys who buy stone-stock speaker cabinets end up replacing the speakers (perfectly fine, as long as you get speakers of the same impedance: 4 ohm, 8 ohm, 16 ohm, whichever), and therefore YouTube has got tons of video of speaker comparisons (or “shootouts”). So you can take your pick.