Help me debunk a claim made by my conspiracy theorist friend

In “did my own research” this morning.

I found reputable cites that, not vaccines, but Covid 19 itself is causing the “increase” in young people’s deaths from heart attacks.

Whether or not it’s true, it’s telling how the anti-vaxxers don’t consider that. It’s as valid a theory as theirs, but doesn’t fit what they already want to believe.

I wish I could understand the 1000 fold increase in anti-vaxxers, probably a lot of whom used to get their yearly flu shot. It makes no damn sense!

It makes perfect sense. Any vaccine will have rare side effects. If you vaccinate a billion people, you will have a LOT of injured people. In the age of social media, most of them will make themselves known and their stories personalized.

If a vax harms one person in 100,000, and you give it to a billion people, that’s 10,000 harmed people. In the past, they would happen here or there, but never hear about each other and the public wouldn’t hear about them. Now they are all on social media screaming that the vax kills.

It doesn’t help that public health experts have repeatedly lied and gaslit the public, destroying trust in authority. That always allows conspiracy theories to flourish.

@Telemark’s excellent cite back in post #4 thoroughly debunks it.

“Gaslighting” is the latest go-to term used by antivaxers.

‘Gaslighting’ has been a term used by all sides for a long time.

Thats why theyre trying to get rid of gaslighting stoves.

It’s certainly true that a lot more people started dying about the time COVID vaccines became available. About a year before, wasn’t it? Exacerbating the toilet paper shortage, people were probably dying of stress and fear at the prospect of future vaccination.

Theres someone on twitter saying Michelle Obama’s book gives the clue in plain sight. Becoming Michelle. Yeah, some crazy people think shes a man.

And it resulted in a massive drop in cervical cancer cases over the past decade. HPV vaccination rates may have even reached herd immunity levels.

Herd immunity, you say? Sheeple, I tell you, them all! It’s in the very name, for Pasteur’s sake!

They’re antivaxxers; I’ve encountered them before. They are in no way, shape or form a legitimate news organization.

Politics. A certain political wing found it advantageous to push a certain narrative, and like with lots of such things, they lost control of the tiger they were trying to ride.

But are there really that many people that can’t see that “I get a yearly vaccine for the flu, and I don’t get sick, and I don’t die so I guess that’s good”, and yet think “covid vaccine is evil, bad and thousands people are dropping like flies in the middle of sports games and the MSM is covering it up, and besides I never get sick” and not see the contradiction?

I mean we like to joke, one of us even used the term “Marching Morons”, :slight_smile: but people can’t really be that stupid, can they? Please say no. How do they function? Literally!How do they find their way home every day?

Millennia of human history indicate that they can indeed be that stupid.

Usually by having the consequences of their stupidity fall on others (by luck or design).

You can’t help but wonder about anti-vaxxers encouraging their supporters to do something (skip vaccinations) that makes it more likely that they will die. How can that be a winning political strategy?

The only answer that i can see is stupidity.

Usually!

I know two people at work who didn’t get vaccinated. People with masters degrees, fer cripes sake! They died of covid. Did it make any of my other unvaccinated coworkers wise up? Of course not.

These are people that understand cause and effect, they understand science and engineering! I just don’t see how politics trumps (ugh) their own rational minds. Do I need to start double checking their computational fluid dynamics results? Their stress analyses? Maybe they decided that zero doesn’t really exist, or Pi is 22/7. Who knows!

Well, first off, there were a lot of stupid people who believed that about flu vaccines and other vaccines pre-pandemic, so we’re starting with a well-established base line of stupid people. Then, the COVID vaccines are using new technologies, so some of the people who weren’t stupid enough to believe this about old types of vaccines are stupid enough to be convinced by arguments that “These new vaccines are different, this isn’t the measles vaccine your mom gave you!”

This new crop of stupid people is ripe for exploitation by the old crop of stupid people, who are having a field day with “I told you so! Vaccines are a menace!”

And then add to this, the cohort of stupid people who might not really believe this, but who will pretend to believe it for political reasons.

In Arizona at least, it literally isn’t. I think the state death total from covid is about 32K. If those unvaccinated republicans hadn’t died, Scary Kari might be governor.

Arizona’s national shame of a conressman Biggs is always complaining about covid precautions. I’ve started encouraging his fans to not get vaccinated and have large parties with each other, They told me I was “wishing death”, I said I was just allowing them the freedom to go to hell in their own way.

And that’s the kind of cognitive dissonance that lets them take one vaccine, but refuse another. “We hate restrictions!” “Okay, go nuts, no restrictions.” “Why are you wishing death on us?!?!?”

You can’t argue rationally with people who can make those kinds of mental pivots.

Kari Lake lost by about 17k votes. If 32k total people died of COVID, then in order for your assertion to be true, about half of all covid deaths in the state would need to be:

  1. Republican
    And
  2. Unvaccinated
    And
  3. Old enough to vote
    And
  4. Died after the vaccine was available
    And
  5. Not have died if vaccinated
    And
  6. Would actually have voted on election day

I don’t think Kari Lake lost because her voters are dead due to vaccine conspiracy theories.