Help me make up a video editing wish list

In My Humble Opinion
1

Help me make up a wish list! :slight_smile:

Assume you want to set up a video production facility for a small community television station. Labor and premises will be provided and high school students may be contributing their time and talent under adult direction. Broadcast equipment is already in place, so that wouldn’t be part of this budget.

The intention is to record community and school events both for broadcast and posterity. Some events, like government meetings, may be covered without stop from gavel to gavel and not edited except to add titles or supplimentary material. Other events, like field trips, concerts, lectures, plays or nature shows may require considerable editing, voiceovers, music added, etc. The biggest project might be a video yearbook with material collected over a year.

So what hardware and software would you recommend for a $10,000 purchase budget? Is this impossibly small?

And, if the budget were only $5,000, we could eliminate any cameras (use existing ones) and concentrate on the editing part. My guess is we would need a computer with ample speed and storage (how much is that?), a good display monitor, editing software, and facilities to digitize the input and preserve the output, probably on DVD.

All things being equal, a PC-based system might be preferable to a Mac-based one, as all other existing hardware is PC and might be called into play on occasion.

Recommendations on brands, models, specs, would be welcome. Any suggestions?

2

You say that broadcast equipment is already in place but then later you say that at $5,000 cameras could be eliminated from the budget. This implies that camera are included in the budget at $10,000. It would help to know exactly what equipment you already have in place, and what your needs are.
Do you have any sound mixing boards? Video switching boards? Are these used on the broadcast end or are they available for use in the production end?

What about tape decks? I assume you have some sort of playback capabilities on the broadcast end, but do you have any decks available for the editing/production end? Speaking of decks, in general it is preferable to have dedicated decks rather than using camcorders as your camera AND deck.

I mention “broadcast end” and “production end” because depending how much broadcasting (or in your case, probably cable-casting) your station is doing, the equipment used to put things on the air (cameras, switchers, tape decks, character generators, etc.) aren’t free to be used for production most of the time.

You know, I just looked back at your thread and I realize I was confused a little by your title. I thought you only wanted to buy editing gear (from the title) but in your post you mention “video production facility”. Production involves more than just editing hence will require more equipment and will cost more.

So at this point-- before I start getting into details, I will wait for you to clarify just exactly what gear you have (that is available for production use) and what your needs are (do you need to videotape and record sound in the field? Do you need to light subjects in the field? What are your audio needs? What tape format (if it is tape) are you using?).

3

I’ve recently gotten to use a JVC GV500 camera. Much better than a prosumer camera like a Sony PD-170/-150/DV-1000/-2000 or a Canon. One thing that bugged me about the prosumer cameras I’ve used is that they seem to use some funky sort of focus where the movment of the focus ring sets up a magnetic field or some shite. The JVC broadcast camera has a real live film camera-style focus ring. Its three ½" chips make better images than the 1/3" chips in the prosumer units. A used one will probably cost about four kilobucks.

The studio I hoooked up with is using Final Cut Pro. I’ve only played with it very briefly, but I was able to make a video clip look like a film clip. I’m not talking about adding a bunch of grain and some scratches, as a lot of people do; it really looks like a film image. Some of the other ‘production companies’ in town also have Final Cut Pro, but they haven’t learned how to do the effects yet. (Everyone else uses prosumer gear, too.) I’ll probably get a better feel for FCP starting tomorrow evening. No idea how much it costs. FWIW, he edits on a Mac G5.

Get a good tripod. Mine is a Bogen 3192 with a 3066 head. I need the larger head because my 16mm camera weighs about 20 pounds. The 3066 has been replaced by another head (the 50a or the 316/3274), so you may be able to get one cheap on eBay. But for video gear, you can use the 501 head. It can take an 11 pound camera, and is the replacement for the venerable 3063 head. A set of 3192 sticks costs $390 (black). The silver 3191 sticks, which are the same as the 3192 except for the colour, plus a 501 head costs $510 from B&H Photo. I like Bogen/Manfrotto because they’re great equipment for a fraction of the cost of Cartoni, Sachtler, O’Connor, et al.

You’ll want lights. I have quite a collection, but the heart of my lighting gear is my Lowel DP Remote Kit. This has been replaced by another kit that adds a soft box. A soft box is a good thing; I’ll have to get one. The DP kit has three DP 1,000 watt lights, stands, scrims, Large Space Bar (like one of those clamps you use for carpentry, about 2½ feet long), lamp box, gel frames, lamp box, and case. It’s really complete. The retail for about $2,200 but any reputable supply house will knock 10%-20% off the MSRP.

You may not need 1,000 watt lights. Lowel also makes Omni kits, which use the 600w Omni lights. I don’t know how much they go for. Yesterday I looked at the Lowel GO All Pro Kit, which has three 250w Pro Lights, stands, scrims, and case. That retails for about $1,200 and SMS Productions has it for $900.

I like Lowel lights because they’re great to use and they are affordable. You can also look at Arri, Mole Richardson, LTM, De Sisti, etc. But with Lowel you get more watts for your buck.

I don’t know anything about microphones, but the guy I’m working/hanging out with just got a new Sennheiser. He says it’s great.

You can make a lot of stuff. I made my own ‘cookies’ and ‘gobos’ out of matte board and fibreglas rods. (cookie: cuculoris – a flat with random patterns cut out of it that goes between the light and the set to create a pattern; and gobo: ‘goes between’ – hence the name – the lights and set, and might be a louver effect, window effect, etc.) Black wrap, which is black aluminum foil, can work for a snoot; and you can use it to block light leaks or to vut the light if you don’t have a flag. I made my own camera dolly, but you could use a wheelchair.

4

That should be 501.

5

Maybe “video production facility” wasn’t the best description. Let me try to describe it another way.

We have a PEG cable TV station, with all the necessary playback decks (VHS, SVHS, DVD), controllers and broadcast equipment. In other words, if you give me a VHS tape or DVD, I can schedule it for airing immediately. However, this equipment, since it is running 24/7, needs to be left alone and not be made part of the editing project.

We also have some cameras of various types – old VHS, 8mm (analog) and a DVD standalone, consumer-grade DVD recorder. So if we don’t buy any cameras at first, we can record stuff to feed the editing machine. Then, maybe in a year or two, we can upgrade to some better cameras.

So what we are missing is the facility to take a video recording or multiple takes and edit it into a show with voiceovers, music, cuts, titles, graphics, whatever, and I am assuming that most of this can be done in a general-purpose computer. We would need video & audio mixing equipment (but can’t much of this be done in a computer?)

What is not being proposed at this early stage is a multiple-mike setup for recording an orchestra. I realize that would require a mixing board and more. Most likely we will be recording concerts with one or two mikes feeding into a single or double camera setup. Syncing might be a problem here, but only for music events.

Field trips would be covered by a single camera, single mike and we would end up with a lot of B-roll stuff, to be sure. This is where post-production editing would be most needed.

As far as format, that would have to be determined. Anything coming from the VHS/8/DVD sources could be dumped into the computer, and the very-final end product would have to be a VHS or DVD that can be played in consumer-grade equipment. Some other format might be used for quality, intermediate, or long-term storage if you could suggest something, but I’m already cringing at the 10/hour cart cost for DV compared to .50 for a DVD blank.

I guess what I need is a $5,000 budget for everything but cameras. If an additional $5,000 were made available, what kind of cameras might we get for the bucks? (These would be portable cameras, not fixed, wall-mounted ones.)

Any suggestions are appreciated.

6

My previous reply was directed at I Love Me, Vol. I.

Johnny L.A., thanks for the equipment rundown; you’ve given me lots of ideas. I hadn’t thought of lights, probably because we won’t be able to use them. We will be faced with recording live events with a minimum of disruption and will have to do with ambient light most of the time, although a small setup with proper lighting could be created for one on one interviews or talking-head news reports.

Final Cut Pro – is that pretty basic editing software? Basic and easy-to-learn is probably more important at first than fancy-schmancy.

Most of the equipment you suggest is for initial recording. I think we may have to skip that and move to the editing stage. Just being able to cut and paste video clips, add simple titles, do cross-fades and add music & voiceovers would be wonderful to start with and we can’t do that now with the existing cameras.

Does anything in this economy scale allow for green-screen effects or am I dreaming?

7

As I said, I haven’t really used Final Cut Pro yet. It seems to be a very capable editing program. (IOW, ‘fancy schmancy’.) I’ve been told it’s easy to learn, though. I don’t know what it costs, but probably a lot. I’ll have to look.

You can use three or four small lights for interviews. The classic set-up is a key light behind the camera, a fill light at about 45° from the set, and a ‘kicker’ or backlight that separates the subject from the background.

Here is a tutorial for the classic three-light setup.

I don’t know about green-screen, except for how it’s done. I’ve never done it myself. Once upon a time when I was a kid with a super-8 camera, I wanted to try blue-screen; but I couldn’t afford it. (IIRC, there was the colour main scene, colour background footage, a B&W positive mask, a B&W negative mask, and a final print. I’d have to look it up to be sure.) I would bet that it’s a lot easier (not to mention cheaper) to do it with video. I’m guessing here, but you probably need to be sure that your green screen is evenly lit. (I have Colortran 2K and 4K cyclorama lights made for the purpose, but I’m going to use them for other lighting.)

8

If you’re doing interviews, you may want to check out:

Lowel ViP kits.
Lowel Rifa-lite sytems
Lowel Tota/Omni kits

Remember that you should get at least 10% off of retail withouth much looking.

Final Cut Pro is an Apple product, so that means Macs. It looks like the full version is $999. If you want to use PCs, then I’ll have to leave it to someone else to make a suggestion. FCP is the only video system I’ve ever poked keys on, and then only briefly. Being from the Old School, I learned to edit film with tape splices, and then moved to dual video decks. My knowledge of editing is severely lacking. (I liked what I saw in FCP though, and I’m eager to learn it.)

9

Oh yeah…

Sorry to keep on about lighting, since you’re really looking for editing gear; but I thought of another cheap accessory I’ve used. Foamcore. Just plain old styrofoam sheets, about an inch thick for some rigidity. You can put gaffer’s tape around the edges if you want, so they don’t get chewed. I made a two-panel reflector with two 3’x6’ sheets of 1" foamcore. I taped the edges, and made a tape hinge between the panels so that they could be folded. Worked like a charm, and cheaper than the 40" folding reflector disc I have now. (But not as easy to transport.) A reflector is good for exteriors when you don’t want to carry around a light kit. Even a small sheet of foamcore (say, 2’x3’) works wonders.

10

Great idea; I have some 4’x8’ sheets in the basement ripped from an insulating job that I can cut up. Talk about cheap!

RE: Final Cut Pro @ $1000 – how does that compare with something like this:

Power Director 4

…which is under $100 for a PC? Remember, my editing needs aren’t demanding, but the budget is. I expect I may have to put $2K-3K into the computer with a ripping-fast CPU, 100GB storage, 1-2GB RAM, DVD burner and a good monitor. Haven’t priced those in detail yet.

11

Alas, editing software really is out of my area of expertise. I’ll have to defer to others on comparisons. :frowning:

12

Like a tricycle to a Suzuki GSX-R600 Sportbike motorcycle.

I mean, seriously, despite the name, the specs for Power Director clearly label it as “home movie” amateur stuff (Three whole audio tracks! Woooo! :wink: ). The comparable program on the Mac side would be Apple’s iMovie and iDVD programs in their iLife suite, and that gets included for free on every consumer-level Mac you buy.

I’m not a pro video editor of any kind, but I do wonder if Final Cut Pro might be more power than you need – you might be better off with Final Cut Express, which gives most of the power of FCP at a third of the price.

Of course, my first instinct for video editing is to reach for good ol’ reliable iMovie, so I’m probably not the best reference for this topic… :slight_smile:

13

I use Ulead PhotoImpact for my images. I haven’t learned PhotoShop yet, so I can’t compare them PhotoImpact does what I need it to do though.

Ulead also makes VideoStudio 8.0. It costs $100 for the program, and $50 for upgrades. You might want to check out the Product Info on the page for features, comparisons, reviews, etc. They offer a free trial download (with registration).

This is a consumer-level product, but it might let you do what you want (titles, transitions, effects, filters, etc.) until you can afford a higher-end system.

Again: I’m a ‘film guy’. While I’m getting more videography experience with broadcast-type equipment, and will soon get experience with FCP, I’d trust other posters who have more experience than I have.

Still, VideoStudio has a free download. You might want to give it a try.

Here is a google search for video editing software. Half a million hits. Some of the links say ‘free download’. I’m sure you can find something there that will suit your needs.

14

I would consider Avid Express DV as well. It will give you the chance to edit video on multiple tracks, including full screens and text over video. It has four separate audio channels for music beds and voiceovers. It is “click and drag” technology once you get all the video imported into the system. To use it, you will need the software, a PC, a DV camera and a DV/VHS VCR. You’ll also need a firewire card in the PC and a firewire to DV cable to go from the computer to the VCR. You should be able to get all of it for less than 5000 dollars. If you go that route, you will be able to put video into the system on the DV side of the VCR and export it to VHS on the other. Avid has about six hours of video storage capacity.

I work in a high school studio that has this setup. It works really well. The combo VCR that I have is a JVC. And Avid has “educational rates” that you can use if you can convince them it’s for that purpose. If so, the software will cost you around 300 dollars, I think.

My cameras are Canon GL1’s. They work pretty well in most light setttings.

15

Camera wise you might want to check out the The Sony HVR-Z1U and the HVR-M10U.

Basically it’s a new High Def camera for under $5000. On the otherhand it’s brand new and I don’t know anyone who has played with one yet. So I havn’t seen how it compares to existing stuff. It is a smaller less professional looking camera, and only has 1/3 inch CCDs as far as I know, and I don’t know how good the other featuredSon the Camera are compared. There also is the problem of finding an editing suite that handles Sony’s High Def Format, HDV.

But Dude, It’s HD :). It’s worth a look see to see if it does what you need when you are looking for a Camera.

16

I may have not made that as clear as I meant to. the HVR-M10U is a HDV deck not a Camera, but also under $5000, designed for the new Camera.

17

Avid is what I would suggest as well. It’s got some great effects that come with it that should give you enough power to grow with. One thing about video editing that I’ve found is that the more you do, the more you want to do. Sure when you first start out, Microsoft Movie Maker will probably do everything you think you want to do, but it won’t take long until you’re wanting to try some more advanced editing options. The basic stuff you want to do (i.e. overlay music, transitions, audio track, titles) can all be done in any basic video editing program such as the Movie Maker I mentioned before, but your products won’t ever move beyond the ‘amatuer’ look. So I suggest looking into Avid, and seeing about their educational rates and such.

As for a computer, you want fast…very fast. I have at my desk a Dell Precision 650 (one version previouse to the one linked), with duel 3.0GHz processor, and 2 GB of RAM. I cannot stress enough that you need a fast CPU, and a ton of RAM, along with some serious HD storage. Video files take up a lot of room, especially the raw DV that you’ll be importing probably. I’d also add in a DVD burner just to make it easier for you to store your final product. Playing around on the Dell site, looks like a setup like I have at my desk will run you about $4k. You can probably get by without some of that, but you really do want to get as powerfull a system as you can, nothing will make your editing more painfull than having to wait 3 hours for a 10 minute video to render.

**I played around with the specs some, and copied the specs of what I think you should go with as a minimum.

The editing software will have a learning curve. Don’t think it’s something you’ll be able to sit down with and be able to figure out in an afternoon. If you’ve never done any video editing before, then you have to learn all the basics, then learn how to add advanced options to those basics. All in all, if you’re looking at spending seriouse money, I’d advise going ahead and getting the best you can at the moment.

Good luck, and let me know if you have any further questions.

18

I am so sad :frowning: . I had written out a really long and detailed post listing all the equipment that you absolutely need and all the equipment that you really should have. And I went into a lot of detail listing the pros and cons of Avid and Final Cut Pro. I did the same for computers and tape decks.

Alas, it is all gone. I left in on my computer screen when I left work and it was never submitted.

I am too miffed about my stupidity to write it all again, but luckily, atraelcovered a lot of what I was going to say.

So let me be very brief. I suggest you go with Avid. Probably the Xpress DV version (you probably don’t need the Xpress Pro and besides, you can upgrade to it later.)

Avid will run on a either a PC or a MAC and FCP only runs on Mac. You indicated that you prefer a PC. I am a professional videotape editor and I work on an Avid Media Composer or Newscutter every day. I like them a lot. I’ve also used the Xpress DV and it’s really good too. Better really than the Avid Newscutter which costs maybe $20,000 - $30,000 (I think). Xpress DV is only $499 (after rebate).

I have also used Final Cut Pro but it’s been a while. It’s a good program too, but I prefer the Avid.

What ever you do DO NOT buy the cheap “Editorz R Us” software. It is made for grandmothers who want to put together simple clips of their poodles for the sewing circle. You would be happy with it for about 1 day and then you would curse yourself for not getting an Avid or FCP.

I mostly agree with atrael about the computer, but I think you could spend less money than he suggested. He is correct about getting absolutely as much power and speed as you can afford, but I think you could do it for maybe $2200 - $2600. Computers are upgradable too so there is some room to grow.

As atrael said, rendering effects can be a loooong wait on slower machines, but I suspect you won’t use very fancy effects at the beginning and Xpress DV can do 2 or 3 or 4 simultaneous effects in real-time (no waiting for rendering).

Get a really fast processor (3 gigahertz or so, I think but I don’t know a lot about processors) make sure your hard drive is “fast” enough (maybe 7200 rpm which is faster than most “off-the-shelf comps”) and most of all, be sure you have ALL of the stuff that Avid tells you you must have. For example, they recommend 1 or 1.5 gigs of RAM. You could start with 1 and just make sure that your computer has slots that you could upgrade to 2 or more gigs later.

You don’t need the “best monitor on the block”, but it should be rather large. People are going to be looking at this thing for long periods of time and there are a lot of little menus and things that have to share the screen with the main video monitor and the timeline.

OK. I said I would keep this short. Enough about the big ticket items ($499 and $2400, hopefully.)

You also need a decent microphone so you can add voice-overs.

You probably should have a small audio mixing board so that you can hook up your mic, tape decks, and other things (like CD or audio tape decks) and feed them into your comp with a single source. Or, you could skip this and plug and unplug out of your soundcard anytime you need to input a different device.

You probaby need some sort of thing that converts your old (pre FireWire) decks/camcorders with RCA outs into FireWire.

And, you need some decks. One for each type of video (or DVD) that you will be importing from. (Hi8, Mini DV, Regular 8, etc.) Decks get really expensive really fast–even at the consumer level (though there actually isn’t really a “consumer level” of decks even for consumer grade formats like DV and Hi8–that’s why they are so expensive. And that’s because consumers almost never use decks. They instead use their camcorder as a playback and recording device.)

This isn’t a good idea if you are doing a lot of inputting and outputting because the heads in camcorders can not usually take as much wear as a dedicated deck can. And once you wear out the heads on your camcorder, you can no longer use it as a camera OR as a deck (maybe you can get the heads replaced, but I bet that would cost as much as a new camera).

HOWEVER-- you need to do this on a tight budget ($5000, right?) so you should consider using camcorders for both your videography AND you input/output to Avid chores. Not the best plan, but a lot cheaper than having dedicated cameras AND dedicated decks.

I’m guessing you may already have one or a few cameras so let’s figure your deck/camera cost at $ 450 to $700. This will get you a decent 1-chip camera but probably not a 3-chip camera (3 is better, but only affects the shooting NOT the playback/record).

Oh yes-- and maybe$80 for a decent mic (buy it used and don’t forget a windscreen and a mount/stand)

I don’t really know the price of the “converter thingie” I referred to. Good ones cost a lot but maybe you can figure something cheap out for $100 - $300.

Soooooo, let’s add up, shall we? Here are some rough and probably optimistic estimates:

$499 Avid Xpress DV
$2400 Computer
$70 microphone
$600 camcorder
$150 conversion thingie
$300 audio mixing board (somewhat optional)

Thats $4000 or so but there is so much you almost NEED to spend the remaining $1000 on-- (better computer, extended tech support for computer (you’ll be pushing it hard) another camera/deck of a different format. Better mic and/or additional mic (a lavalier that you can use for interviews in the field) and maybe an external NTSC video monitor (ask me another time)) so you’ll use up that whole $5000 EASY. But the point for now is, yes! I think this is do-able with pretty good starter gear for about 5 grand.

Feel free to ask me about anything else. (Or, if you want to pay my plane ticket and room and board, I might go out there and help you plan and set up the whole thing :slight_smile: )
OH YES!!! Don’t forget to get an educational discount on everything!!

Good luck!

19

Me, too. :frowning: Twice. I just wrote out a detailed reply to everyone, hit submit, and got a “server cannot be found” message, so I feel your pain. And I hadn’t saved the message in the clipboard as I usually do. Woe is us. :frowning:

I’ll try this again.

Thanks to I Love Me, Vol. I, Atrael, Johnny L.A., and wolfman for the detailed comments, hints, info and parts lists. Did I leave anyone out?

I think I’d better decide on the editing software first, as it could determine the platform. I hate to give up my years of PC experience and parts piles, but the Mac is looking attractive. Final Edit PRO looks good. I haven’t yet checked out Avid. Johnny L.A., Video Studio might be underkill if we can afford Final Edit.

I Love Me, Vol. I, I won’t ask you to revive the lost parts lists, but the comparision you mentioned between Final Edit and Avid would be really interesting from someone who has used both, as I have used neither. I hope you can repost this info.

As far as hardware, I get the point – fastest, biggest, baddest, mostest.

I think we will go for the editing equipment out of the first $5K, then upgrade cameras, mikes, mixers and lighting with our second wind and second $5K. With added equipment will come a need for added personnel and we need to be sure they will be available. Right now, a single cam, single mike, single operator is how things get recorded, so editing is the only way we can have any impact.

One project I would like to prepare for is a video yearbook. This will involve advance planning, recording many events, parking the semi-edited clips, then composing a finished product at the end of the year. Anyone have any experience with this kind of project and can give any tips?

20

I’ve gotten into the habit of copying the text in the reply box before I hit submit. Quite often I get the SDMB ‘server cannot be found’ message, and my dial-up connection is always dropping offline. If the post doesn’t go, then I can just paste it into a new reply box. :slight_smile:

Indeed. I only posted that because of the price. The others are correct that you should get a more capable program if your budget allows.

I hadn’t looked into Avid, because everything I’ve heard about it (from film magazines) was that it was prohibitively expensive. I’ll have to check out XPress DV.

I went to the studio yesterday to learn FCP by watching the editing of the wedding video that was shot Saturday. Didn’t happen. First, this actor showed up who’s interested in being in my short film. We taped him reading some lines and chatted a bit. Then the writer of the current project showed up and we chatted about things in general, and my project. Then a client came round, and The Boss had to meet with him about cover designs and three or four commercial projects he wants to do. Then we all went out and walked their new beagle, Bagel. Then we went to dinner. But I’ll learn FCP soon. There’s a television station in town that was looking for an editor. They’ve probably found one by now; but since I know they use FCP, then if I learn it then I’ll be ready for the next position that becomes available.

They’re planning on getting some more cameras at the studio, so I’ve been looking at eBay. The JVC GY-DV500Us usually list hours. At the studio, they say they’ll probably change out the heads at 150 hours. They also said that using the camera as a playback deck is hard on the heads. I haven’t looked for DV decks, but a friend of mine sold his Sony Hi-8 playback deck for $200 last year.