So, first let me say that I think I chose the right place to post this, but it could also maybe be in the IMHO area, I guess.
I reacquainted with someone recently, and as expected, he told me about how he’s not vaccinated.
So his arguments and claims:
He doesn’t trust our for-profit healthcare. My weak retort was that it’s the same vaccines that they use worldwide, but he still thinks that the whole thing is to be played-out with new variants just so they sell us the cure. That’s pretty wild, but I don’t trust the pharmaceutical companies either, so it’s difficult for me to argue on their behalf. Of course the pharmaceutical industry is in bed with media outlets.
Fauci gave money to fund a the virus, (I can’t think of the term that he used… “Gain Of Function”??,) and lied about it under oath. I obviously don’t know much about it, but I remember Rand Paul squawking about something, and I simply think Paul is an asshole, so I didn’t catch his actual accusations.
The numbers that say a certain percentage of people are unlikely to get severe symptoms can’t be trusted, because; “of course they are going to telling you their products are successful.” He doesn’t know how they reached those numbers, and asked me if I did. Of course I didn’t, but I have trust in them.
He also said maybe of the reasons doctors don’t go against the vaccine is because they are ostracized.
That’s about all he threw at me. I don’t think I can change his mind, but I want to stand my ground, and feel a little more confident our next interaction.
IMHO, there’s absolutley nothing you can do. He’s decided that reason, truth, and science are all lies and anything you could possibly say will, of necessity, belong to at least one of those three.
Y’know, it sounds like this conspiracy theory — cancels itself out? If he believes Fauci used money to fund the virus, and that the idea is that “the whole thing is to be played-out with new variants just so they sell us the cure”, then — what? He believes that a virus is out there, and that there’s a cure to it — and he won’t take the free cure, because said virus was funded?
Like, if he were pushing a far-out conspiracy theory where folks (a) bent on selling stuff that’s of no use to him, and (b) just pretend there’s some virus to be cured — that’s nuts, but I could squint my way to seeing a story that’d hang together. But if he believes money got used to brew a virus that now really is lurking around the corner, then wouldn’t that ‘really is’ part be what’s relevant?
Aren’t they now offering medicine that is of use to him — against what he’d snarlingly refer to as the Fauci-funded virus, sure; but: doesn’t that mean he believes there is a Fauci-funded virus?
At this point, it’s basically the medical equivalent of Sovereign Citizens. With SCs, the legal system is so complex, “normal” people can’t quite figure it all out, and need experts (lawyers) to help them navigate it. SCs have decided it’s all bullshit, and if you just know the right magic words, you can cut out all the bullshit and deal with your legal problems all on you own.
The people pushing Ivermectin are treating medicine the same way. You don’t need all these fancy experts (doctors) giving you vaccines you don’t understand, all you need is to go down to your local farm supply store and pick up some Ivermectin, and treat yourself! Problem solved! No need to bother with changing your behavior, or even trying to understand why the new behavior can help (masks don’t work! Your vaccine doesn’t work if I’m not vaccinated! Why can I shop in a grocery store but not sit in church for two hours?!?)
We’ll figure out how to convince the anti-vaxxers about the same time we figure out how to convince the Sovereign Citizens. I wouldn’t advise holding your breath.
Rand and Fauci went back and forth about gain of function research. Whether or not the US funded GoF research, Rand admitted in that back and forth that this virus didn’t come from that. So, that’s a red herring. If he (or you) watch that back and forth (and can stomach Rand for that long), you’ll see that Fauci pins him down on GoF and this specific virus.
Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are also produced by pharmaceutical companies, so I don’t see why he would trust those but not the vaccine.
The rest of it is pure conspiracy theory and there’s no way to rationally convince him.
You could ask him if his lack of trust in for-profit healthcare means he’d turn down antibiotics if he developed sepsis, refuse insulin for diabetes and reject emergtency anti-clotting medication in the event of an incipient stroke. Would he tell EMTs responding to a serious accident that no thanks, he’d rather bleed out on the street because our for-profit health care system can’t be trusted?
Most likely he’ll pretend he didn’t hear you, or change the subject. I’ve directed such questions at similar people online many times, and never once gotten anyone to respond coherently.
Better to change the subject yourself. How about those Vikings?
IMO, the only questions concern whether you want to continue to have relations with him and, if so, how you want those interactions to go.
I’m not saying you ought to cut off everyone who disagrees with you on this issue (tho you may want to limit personal interactions.). You might be able to have some degree of social interactions with him, IF he is able to keep quiet on this issue. IF he brings this up, I would consider saying, “I strongly disagree with everything you say about this. I’m willing to continue as we are so long as we do not discuss this topic.” And if he brings it up again, just drop him.
I agree with others that there is nothing you can do to change his mind. If you wanted to be confrontational, you could plainly tell him how ignorant his views are. But I doubt that will accomplish anything - unless you would get some benefit from saying that.
As I see it, the question is whether you derive anything positive from this guy sufficient to outweigh the negative from his views on this topic. For example, I unfriended people on FB when I decided it was just too unpleasant to see their negative pro-Trump crap.
I think @Dinsdale has given the best advice possible on the subject. The OP’s acquaintance is making choices based on tainted information - and the reasons he gives aren’t rationally consistent. That plus the ‘belief’ that Ivermectin and Hydroxycytidine are valid treatments shows the likely source of said tainted information.
As @The_Other_Waldo_Pepper points out, he seems to be accepting that COVID exists, but that it’s used to generate profits. But if he agrees it IS real, and still refused to get the jab, they he’s upped his game to being a jerk if he’s in the US (Not a given of course). Because he knows he can get it, he can SPREAD it, and the vax is free. Point that out to them. If he then goes down the 'unsafe / microchip / not a real cure ’ rabbit hole then back away slowly.
He’s gone - he may be right that ‘Big Pharma’ is a corrupt business, but that doesn’t mean that anything else follows. And again, your realization of what he considers ‘safe’ and ‘trustworthy’ (snake oil) is a definite tell of what is likely going on.
It’s pointless to engage this person on his conspiracies. I’d prefer to stick to the simple science. 4.4 billion vaccines have been given throughout the world and side effects are rare. Give him your anecdotal evidence (other friends and family) who have been safely vaccinated. Show the tons of data of vaccine efficacy. You can start with the US.
But similar trends are seen all over the world.
UK
Vaccination provides 70% protection against the omicron variant in South Africa
I honestly don’t think you should have any in-person interaction with him. I’d tell him that I’m sorry, but I can’t hang around you until it’s safe to be near you. That means until you are fully-vaccinated or the pandemic is over. I guess it’s your call whether your conspiracy theories are more important than our friendship.
“Well, you have two choices here. You can read daily rhetoric everyday debating every conceivable conspiracy about Covid-19, Fauci, big pharma, etc, all of which you have absolutely no control over and make this your hill to die on. Or you can get a vaccine like millions of others have done, ignore the whole media mess, and get on with your life. I’ve already made my choice so I don’t really feel like talking to you about it anymore.”
“Help me respond to anti-vax guy I know”
That’s about as far into this as I read. This has been going on for almost two years now. There’s almost certainly nothing you can do to change his mind. IF he changes it, he’s going to have to do it on his own. He’ll have to come to the realization that he’s wrong and he’s going to have to get there from picking up information here and there, not having it shoved down his throat. Responding to whatever claims he has will only make him dig his heels in further as he becomes defensive about it (and that’s true for a lot of things, not just anti-vax).
The way I see it, if you want to be friends with him, you’ll need to find other topics to discuss. Perhaps even to the point of saying ‘can we talk about something else’. If you want to change his mind, you might as well walk away now. You can can either walk away now or argue with him for a few months and then walk away.
Remember, if he doesn’t want to get the vaccine, he doesn’t have to. Literally the ONLY reason to talk about it is because he’s trying to convince the listener to be anti-vax as well. The way you see him is the same way he sees you. All you’re doing is talking past each other and getting frustrated. You’re worked up because he’s too stupid to believe the medical community and he’s worked up because you’re too stupid to know you shouldn’t be listening to them.
Of course, this is all null and void if he’s actually interested in a conversation/debate, but I sincerely doubt that’s the case.
Yeah, I usually go with, “Whoever told you that has lied to you.”
It (only slightly) helps because you are not calling them out personally (and therefore causing them to double down). Instead you are calling out their source of information.