The plan for now is to apply to all of 'em and see what comes back in turns of financial help. Right now, he likes Kenyon, Kalamazoo, Earlham and MSU in pretty much that order (we’re visiting Oberlin tomorow). After we see the financials, we’ll pick the top two or three for an overnight visit with class sit-ins etc.
About the grand tour - yeah, we pretty much are. We visited Kalamazoo based on some recomendations of teachers, and learned about the GLCA from their literature and from talking to folks on campus. We started researching the other schools, went to Princeton Review and clicked on "People Who Applied Here Also Looked At. . . ", and the next thing you know we were doing the LAC tango.
His preferences are based very much on subjectives: the campus (Kenyon and Kalamazoo), programs (Kenyon and MSU), “culture” (Kenyon and Earlham). When we start to look at comparative costs and assistance, it could focus our attention a bit more.
True, but those activities will either get you into a great graduate school, or get you a great first job.
At least half of the most successful lawyers I know and practiced with went to mediocre or average colleges and/or law schools. It was what they did there, and what they did in their jobs after that, that really mattered in making them a success.
I’ve got a Harvard degree to my name. It does help get my foot in the door, but then the question becomes, “What else you got?”
I was responding to the suggestion that activities look better on a resume than a prestigious school. This is patently not true.
The activities will look good once, the education will look good forever. It’s unfair, but its true.
I did not say a prestigious school will make you more successful, make you happier, get you laid, or get the chickweed out of your lawn. I said it looks better on a resume. I don’t think you can really dispute that.
You admit Harvard gets you a foot in the door sometimes. I guarantee you Kalamazoo College gets a foot in the door exactly nowhere (even though you can get a good education there). You may not even realize how nice it is to get a foot in the door every once in a while.
It definitely DOES make a huge difference to put activities on your first resume. They get you into grad school or get you a better first job. And you really can’t dispute that, either.
I am also saying that while a prestigious school on a resume does help somewhat sometimes, it is not the end-all, be-all. Someone in this thread recommended picking the most prestigious school, regardless of other considerations. I’m saying that’s a flawed philosophy. There are other things that can and do matter.
No you totally misrepresented me. I said specifically said *all other things being equal * and I also emphasized that was a very big assumption. The OP did however say the they fell in love with all schools. I do think that prestige is a large consideration. Frankly, for better or worse, it’s one of the first things that gets noticed on a resume. Oberlin won’t do for you what Harvard would do, but it’ll do a lot more than any of the other colleges on the list.
Of course, it should be said that all the questions of prestige only matter in certain fields. For example, no one cares what film school you went to, they want to see what you did there. For Polisci, I imagine it’s more about where you went than what you did.
Sorry, but that was easy to miss, what with the word “prestige” jammed in there three or four times.
My point is this: don’t overestimate what prestige will do for you. It doesn’t get you jobs–it gets your foot in the door sometimes. There are other ways to get your foot in the door, and in many instances, better ways–such as relevant experience.
Which is why, IMHO, it’s better to go to a school with a solid reputation where you fit in and can participate in activities you really enjoy, as opposed to a prestigious school you’re not so thrilled about and that doesn’t meet as many of your wants/needs.
On a different note: after reading about the James Madison College, I’d say that’s a really bad idea. It seems to be solely devoted to political science majors. A huge percentage of kids who go into college thinking they know what they’re going to study change their minds radically. For example, two National Merit Scholars from my high school attended the same college I did. After the first semester, the girl changed her major from engineering to political science–and dropped a very nice scholarship to do it. Sophomore year, the guy switched from biochemistry to philosophy and English. Even the most together sorts of kids have big changes of heart.
MSU, Kenyon, and Oberlin Colleges all have respected reputations and widespread name recognition. IMHO, your kid should pick from among those.
Send him to Earlham, as I used to go to college in Richmond Indiana, except I went to IU east. I could take him under my wing and teach him everything I know, molding him in my own image. Soon he would be known as ‘Wesley Clark the Lesser’ while I would maintain the title of ‘Wesley Clark the Greater’.
If not, I really don’t know much about Earlham. I only took 1 class there so I am not knowledgable about the atmosphere at Earlham, but it did have a progressive slant (there were articles about not signing up for selective service on billboards when I went). The campus looked nice though but as someone else said Richmond is nothing to write home about. It is not a bad town per se but its not great either. Their city library sucks though.
At the end of the day I don’t think it really matters much where he goes to college, as things like work experience, being someone an employer would want to work with (ie someone with good social skills who can fit into a social environment) and just having a degree are extremely important, more important than where you go to college. In my opinion, he’d be better off going to an in state college and investing whatever money he would’ve had to spend on out of state tuition into a trust fund or a fund for a home down payment.
True, this is a major factor. I changed my major from sociology to nursing to chemistry. My brother changed from psychology to mathematics. Most people change majors, I remember someone in my physics class talking about how he signed up for engineering and went to Purdue, but dropped out after a semester. He transferred to IU bloomington to study geology instead and as a result of that transfer he lost out on alot of scholarships.
I should point out that the James Madison college is part of MSU. It is the official name of the MSU school of Polisci. If he goes there and changes his mind, he can transfer to any other curriculum in MSU that he wants.
As someone who went to a no-name school, I can promise you that the prestige factor on a resume is a LOT bigger than you think it is. I’ve had to compete with Harvard grads who just plain don’t have the skills or abilities as me, but they’re considered on a par with me by potential employers, or considered to have more potential just because of the name of their school. In fact, after being hired I’ve had to outwork them just to be thought of as equal. I’m not complaining, but it’s the truth of the matter.
A degree from a prestigious school doesn’t equal an automatic hire by any means, and it may not seem like much to you who already have it. But those of us that don’t who swim in the same waters… all I can say is, my biggest regret in life is not going to U of M when I had the chance.
Here’s a part that effectively refutes your point:
From what I’ve seen with my own eyes, repeatedly, the college prestige will always give you a tremendous advantage, no matter whether you’re applying to work at a law firm or a guitar shop.
I know people who have been VERY happy at all of the schools you’re considering. If he’s considering majoring in Poli Sci, then it’s pretty much a given that he’s going to grad school. If so, then his undergrad matters less, as future employers will focus on where he went to grad/professional school. And people from the schools you list go to outstanding grad schools all the time.
I said this in the other thread too: James Madison is a great place. Some of my closest friends in college went there and all of them loved it. One of them is an ambassador (she got a PhD from Columbia). I’m sure going to JMC helped her along this career path, but I doubt if it would have been much different if she’d done her undergrad at any of the other schools you list.
Going to MSU will probably give him lots of advantages in terms of flexibility if he changes his mind on major, lots of activities, lots of intrnational programs, opportunity for exposure to local and state politics. But, he can get enough of all that (except maybe the state politics) at the other schools as well.
I say he should go where he thinks he’ll be most comfortable growing into the school. Sounds like he’s got lots of solid choices, which is more than lots of kids his age can say.
Good luck! (You’re going to let us know where he goes, right?)
I’m glad someone’s defending MSU. I absolutely loved my time in East Lansing, I still go back and visit every year. I was hoping someone would tell me I was wrong about James Madison, so thanks gardentraveler. I hope you’re right - it’s certainly true that none of my friends went to Grad school, and that can indeed make a huge difference. No reason **Genghis Kid ** can’t go have a wonderful undergrad experience at MSU and then go for the prestige in choosing a grad school. He’ll have a better handle on what he wants from life by then anyway.
They’re three of his top four, so odds are in their favor.
I’m very mindful of the fact that he may well change his mind with respect to major, which would tend to point us toward the bigger schools with more
options. On the other hand, knowing my kid, he’s LAC material through and through; if it’s not Poli Sci, it’ll be history or some other discipline that nobody will pay you to do.
In the end, the decision may hinge on money, which would make all this discussion moot!
I wouldn’t put too much stock on changing majors and needed lots of choices.
You know, I went to a dinky school and wsn’t sure of what major I’d choose. It was still fine. It’s not as though a well-respected liberal arts school (such as the ones on your list) would have a dearth of interesting majors. Most students who don’t want something professional or highly specialized at the undergrad level will be covered. And what’s also nice is that it’s often no big deal to change majors at a LAC.
I also did what someone else suggested–went to a place I loved for undergrad (regardless of its lack of reputation), and went for prestige at the graduate level. I had some of the same experiences others have mentioned (seeing colleagues who were graduates of prestigious baccalaureate institutions getting more breaks to start with)–but that has mattered less as time passes and people have their own performance to stand on (rather than the reputations of their alma mater).
Maybe you covered this in the other thread and I’ve forgotten, but any interest in, say, the RC at Michigan?
We visited Michigan. He was impressed, but not enough to move it up on his list. I think the size was a little overwhelming for him. What he liked about James Madison College at MSU was the school-within-a-school atmosphere; he’s definitely looking for a small-school feel wherever he goes.
By the way . . . what is “RC at Michigan”? I just know I’m going to :smack: when you tell me, but I haven’t been able to figure it out.
