Actually, I want advice on bringing him back into the game. The problem is that he comes in, and immediately starts playing everquest. If he gets into a fight, he’ll wave a blaster. Otherwise he adds nothing. I think he’d be a moderating influence, but how can I compete with AA’s and raid points?
I can’t; he’s my business partner. And he’s not immature to anyone else. He reserves that just for me. Everything has to be perfectly sensible, when he’s already pissing all over sense with his character.
I’m sorry, bandit, and I don’t mean to offend, but it sounds like they got the most perfect GM that they could, from their point of view: One who will let them do whatever they want with no consequences and no backbone.
If they won’t respect your Game Mastery, don’t play at all. You don’t have to kick anyone out…you just have to not run the games for them. I can’t understand why you allow them to walk all over you when all you have to really say is “Fuck that shit…I’m out of here.” Because Og knows you don’t seem to be having any fun.
Ask him. He obviously has more fun playing EQ than gaming with your group, which makes me wonder why he bothers coming over. But if anyone is going to know what will get him more interested in the game, he will.
So what if he’s your business partner? That doesn’t mean he needs to be your gaming partner too. And it sounds to me like he’s got some serious passive-aggressive control issues with you in game. You need to either have a serious talk with him about the issues you have between you and how they’re affecting the game, or you need to stop gaming with him. He’s not only ruining your fun, he’s probably severely degrading the fun everyone else is having.
From my perspective, I just don’t know what to do when they run completely away from anything remotely threatening. They go to a lot of trouble to avoid the slightest hint of real danger, secure in the knowledge they have real firepower. I just get to feeling really quickly like the only thing I can do is invoke random crap. And I don’t want to torque them off with it.
OK, here’s a new question: How can I invoke random crap when they run wild around avoiding things, and make it feel real enough not to break player #1’s sense of realism?
There’s only so many times I can have then run into a random Sith patrol of flock of Mynocks, so let’s leave that aside. In any case, half of them seem to despise combat and the other half loves it.
Should I…
Have an old laser barrier or a broken electric system whipping around, so they try and disarm it? Maybe a leaky gas pipe. They wo9n’t want to fire weapons off depending on the type of gas.
Maybe some mines? They’d have to be smart mines, cause they’ll otherwise just walk around on the pipes or something.
Maybe a pit, basically, because no one’s supposed to go down there? One character blunders in, the others have to help him back up?
I might need help running combat effectively, but it just hardly seems worth it when one guy hauls out his grenade launcher at the first sign of combat. I do think I’ve been doing at least one thing right, though: I’ve been having my goons I’ve fairly tough defensively and fairly smart, retreating when neccessary and trying to use superior equipment. They keep expecting them to fall apart at the first hit, and I don’t let that happen.
So, basically, what direction should I go? How do I use obstacles effectively? I can do this in Shadowrun really easily, but then I just make a place and the characters have to work their way in. I have a beter sense of what the party will do then.
You are what we call a “midget” GM. Man do you need to lay out the rules.
When we play we play. No Everquest, no anything. When your character isn’t involved, then wait patiently until he is. If he doesn’t want to play, don’t let him.
You lost this fight before you even started. You let them go nuts with character creation and now you are living with the results. The only thing you can do now is identify the most unbalanced characters and kill them. Make it plausible. Do something you know will cause #1 to tune out, and then when he is ignoring you he ends up getting killed. Now you can actually show some balls when he makes his next character and keep him in line. It may be a fun roleplaying experience for him to play someone not stupid, but of average intelligence.
Oh, about that, why the fuck do you let him turn on music and flashing lights? Why don’t you say, “Turn off the lights and music?” If he ignores you then YOU turn them off. If he turns them back on, you tell him to leave as he is preventing anyone from enjoying it.
Man, you need some tough love here. Most groups even those composed of a lot of jerks, will do half decent in a good environment, but it sounds like the current environment sucks.
Paranoia is fun. In every group I’ve played with, it was Very Popular at school test time (followed closely by “ok, let’s make a bunch of dwarves and hack some goblin the ol’ fashioned way, and then we can go back to stuff where you need to switch your brain on”). Any player whose character managed to survive with more than zero clones still in storage was considered a hero; many games ended with half the group dead (as in “their characters had no clones left”).
Even though the OP is a Pitworthy (albeit very nerdy) rant, the thread promptly turned into a civil and interesting (albeit very nerdy) discussion which I think is much better suited to Cafe Society.
Please note that I’m moving this as a compliment to the posters in this thread, not as a criticism to the OP or anyone else.
your friendly (albeit very nerdy) neighborhood moderator
It sound to me like the problem is not what you as a GM are doing. It sounds to me like your gaming environment (players and what’s going on at the game) is the problem. I don’t think there’s much you can do in terms of changing the game or adding different challenges to improve things.
My advice is to end the campaign. Seriously. It doesn’t sound like you or your players is having fun. Wait a few months, then start a new campaign. Don’t invite #1 or #4 to join. If possible, don’t even tell them about the new campaign. Consider finding new players to fill their spots, then if they complain later tell them sorry, the group is full, no open slots.
I have a few rules I’ve developed over the years as a GM to keep the game fun for everyone:
First - the GM is always right. On game rules, on theme and world details, on who can be in the game, even when contradicted by rulebooks or other source material. I am willing to be reasonable and will acknowledge when I am wrong on interpretation or reference facts, but I reserve the right to suspend the rules or make unannounced deviations from sourcebooks when appropriate.
The “Three Strikes” rule. You get three chances to make a PC who can work with the rest of the party. Characters who don’t mesh with the group, actively act against everyone else’s goals, or just make things unfun for the others can (depending on genre) be fired, jailed, killed, or whatever. Make a new PC. If you can’t make a character that works with the party with three chances, don’t bother making a fourth.
Even if the three strikes rule has not come into effect, a player can be kicked out of a game if everyone else in the game (including the GM) agrees that they should leave. No arguing.
If you miss a game session or show up excessively late without some attempt at notifying me beforehand, I reserve the right to NPC your character, and have him take actions I chose in the interest of furthering the plot. Repeatedly missing games without notifying the GM causes your PC to become a permanent NPC.
If the game is in session, but you’re in the other room playing computer games, watching a movie, or whatever, don’t expect me to come get you if combat or something involving your PC begins. If you want to be in the game, be in the game. If you’d rather be doing other things, don’t waste my time.
I expect character sheets and background submitted before the campaign starts. Unanswered questions or major holes in your background will be filled in by the GM as needed. I reserve the right to reject a character concept or sheet if I judge it abusive or not fitting the game’s theme, even if it’s legal by the rules.
Be considerate to your fellow gamers. Behavior which distracts from the game - playing music or noisy video games at the table, or having loud conversations about non-game things that interfere with the game is rude and should be done elsewhere. (But see above rule about being absent when the game is running.)
It has been my experience that the GM has to be a bit of a tyrant to keep the game fun for everyone. I’ve developed these rules after years of GMing and dealing with all sorts of problem players. They may seem harsh, but I don’t have any problems finding players (and really have only once ever had to kick someone out)
I advocate against Podkayne’s notion of changing the rules midstream - that’d piss me right off if I were playing. A minor retcon to campaign history, sure. But changing the very platform on which the game rests, mid-campaign? Un-unh. I couldn’t abide that. That’s Cardinal Gamemaster Sin #2 in my book.
However. Never allow the Players to design custom races. It only leads to rapaciousness.
bandito, you are in a tough spot. #1 is a completely lousy player, and #4 isn’t even playing. I know you said #1 is your business partner, but Zeus on a cracker, he sounds absolutely awful as an RPGer. An attention whore who wants to min/max metagame everything, and becomes sullen and indignant when things don’t go exactly as he wants is no fun to play with at all.
If #4 isn’t paying attention to the game, let him know the consequences. When he hasn’t done anything in 10 minutes and then a battle arises and he pipes up with “So I pull out my blaster…” you tell him “No, you aren’t with the rest of the group. Your character wasn’t paying attention and got lost in Sector Q. If you want to try to find the rest of the group I can help you out with that after the battle.” But really, if he’s playing EQ he shouldn’t be in the game. I have no idea why you ever allowed this in the first place.
You’re either going to have to put your foot down on these players or stop GMing them. If I were in your shoes I’d try to start over with players 2, 3, 5, and 6. It sounds like this campaign and its characters may be hopelessly lost. I’d try to end it quick.
[aside]
Have many people had good experiences gaming with a group of 6? I don’t GM much, but more than 3-4 players seems like it would be hard to do well.
This actually reminds me of one of those months-long ongoing discussions they used to have happen in the Forum section of Dragon back in the day. I privately referred to it as “The Saga of Red-Eye” while it was going on.
It was also a (classic) Star Wars RPG problem, almost exactly like bandit’s problems with Player #1. The player in question had managed to find a nearly unbeatable equipment/skills combination within the rules as published and the GM was tearing his hair out over the fact that there was absolutely nothing he could do because everything was aboveboard with the rules (as published). I don’t remember the details anymore, but a lot of the advice sounded like ours here. “Put your foot down” “End the campaign” “Stop GMing for him”
Because, basically, the whole thing was (and is, in bandit’s case) broken. Beyond repair. And the problem wasn’t in the software, so to speak, but, as is said in tech support circles, PIBKAC*.
Hang on . . . you let him play Everquest DURING your game? Time to say NO. Tell him to turn off the computer and play the game he’s there to play, or leave. It’s not your job to try to compete with Everquest to draw him into the game. It is your job to keep him from diminishing the play experience of the other players by not participating in the role-playing.
We had a problem with this—not with Evercrack, but with someone who brought his laptop and played games while we played. Finally the GM pulled him aside and said, “Listen, if your character is involved in the scene, I want you to shut your laptop. If you’d rather be playing on your computer, you can do that at home. But if you’re here, and I’m giving you my full attention, and I expect the same in return.” If you’re feeling nice, you can do as Teine says, and ask him what changes he might like to see in the game to make it more intersting than Everquest, but I doubt he will be able to give an answer that’s more helpful than “Derrrr, but I lurvs my Everquest. drool”
Being your business partner means he has carte blanche to act like an asshole to you when you have gone to the effort of preparing running a game, supposedly for your mutual entertainment? Screw that.
If he’s turning on loud music to disrupt the game, his immaturity is affecting everyone in the game. And it’s also irrelevant. Even if he’s only being rude toward you, the game master, then he is disrupting the game, and he should be shown the door until he can act like a grown-up.
Seriously, I would cancel the game. I don’t think you can lay down the law at this point. You’ve let them run wild for too long. Just tell them you can’t handle their behaviour any more, and the game’s not fun for you. I mean, is it? It doesn’t sound fun. Why should you continue to pour a lot of work into a leisure activity that’s just an ongoing source of frustration?
Find a better group of players, or just take a break for a while.
If they come crawling back in a few weeks begging you to run another game, then you can start fresh. I strongly recommend working together with the players to write a Campaign Contract that describes the responsiblities of the GM and the players, (e.g. The GM must give fair notice of rules change to the players, everyone must show up on time and ready to play, disruptive behavior should be kept to a minimum, the rulings of the GM are final and pouting and throwing tantrums is unacceptible, etc.) and everybody who wants to play in the game must sign it. This really helps when you, as GM, have to give somebody the smackdown, because all the players worked together to write the contract, so they have a sense of ownership. If someone is disregarding the contract, they are letting down everyone, and the rest of the group will be backing you up when you call them on it—if you even have to. If someone is behaving disruptively, all that has to happen is for any of the other players to say, “Dude, contract.” I’ve seen this happen.
If you are enjoying the current game and you want to keep playing, I think you have much deeper issues to address than creating more challenging encounters.
One of the characters has a grenade launcher? And grenades to use in it? Why is that? Because you either gave them to him, or allowed him to purchase them. If players are abusing rules, and it’s making the game less fun, then say NO. If they have items that are crazy out-of-control, then break them, steal them, restrict access to the ammo, or find some other means to take them away. Sorry, I don’t have an SW-specific advice, but I think your game’s issues ultimately have nothing to do with the system.
Yeah, I wasn’t clear on the player #4 situation. That’s a major problem. I mean, one of my own players has adult ADD, or a good facsimile. He’ll fidget with paperclips or spin dice during games, and it feels like he’s not paying attention - that level I can tolerate. But actually willfully and completely ignoring the game to do something else? I don’t allow spectators at my games, so shape up or ship out.
That seems to be the general consensus. Bandit, you are the Game Master. Game. Master. There’s a reason it’s called that. You’re in charge. Of EVERYTHING. The only way for players to run roughshod over a Game Master is if…wait for it…the Game Master lets them. This doesn’t mean that you need to be a petty tyrant forcing your PCs to wear red chiffon tutus in order to get into the space station or anything. It does mean that you need to be firm about retaining control over the game.
Cardinal Gamemaster Sin #1 in my book is system idolatry. If it’s not working or it doesn’t make sense, then fix it. If one of the players complains that they would have spent points differently based on the different rules, then, you can allow them to reallocate points with careful supervision. IMHO, a good game rests on three pillars: setting, character, and storyline. If the system gets in the way of those, it needs to be fixed.
I don’t know if there’s a specific rules-change that would help bandit, nor am I advocating that he change rules at this point, but I think that the GM should be able to tweak the system, or forbid players from exploiting some obscure rule that gives them a crazy advantage. For Og’s sake, if someone is exploiting a loophole, don’t just sigh sadly and say, “It’s in the rules; I guess you can do it,” and let it ruin the game. Have the sense to say, “No, that’s not reasonable, and I’m not allowing it.”
Right now I GM two games, one of 6 players and one of 7 players. I actually prefer smaller groups, 4-5 being ideal, and normally set a cap of 6 players max. With that number of players it starts getting tricky to make sure everyone gets to do something interesting in every game session. Other games I play in have 5 (a cozy group, about right), 7 (a bit too large IMHO), and 8+ (Way too big, some people sit through sessions getting to do nothing) players.
Also, I don’t know how you go about these things, but if #1 has already setup blah blah blah, then you kill his fucking character. His next one won’t be able to pull the same thing. If he is, kill him too.
Or, you can always just say “no”. If he get’s pissy and leaves, too bad. Really, why do you owe anything to someone who continually ruins the game?
I have a good group that’s focused on having fun. We’ve tossed out (or mocked and ignored) any powergaming assholes who wreck things. We may even do it again sometime.
If it doesn’t make sense, house-rule it before play starts. If you absolutely MUST change during gameplay - I’ve never seen a situation where this was necessary - then you have to get buy-in from your players and must allow then to revamp their choices based on the change. Since that latter caveat can lead to paradoxes (Well, I knew Knock before, and that’s how we got in that one place, but my revised character no longer knows it) I advise avoiding it if at all possible.
Cardinal GM Sin #1 is : Seizing control of the PCs from your players, by the way. It includes things like Railroading, but I’ve seen extreme cases where the GM basically narrated character actions with no mind-control involved.
I like the personality switch. But do it Star Wars style.
Drop them into Degobah. It’s a swamp. A metal-eating rusting swamp. See how long that power armor lasts. Begin equipment failures, then run out of spare parts. Break him down to a flying helmet. There’s no technology there. Nothing for him to do but survive.
Drag them into a Dark Side Hollow. Make them face themselves. Instead of personality swapping, make them pair up and each person plays the guy on the right’s mirror image.
They can escape through a temple with a mysTERious gate. Which drops them all in the Corporate Sector. Naked… and human.
If they redeem themselves… maybe. But this is their vision quest.
If it’s not working or it doesn’t make sense, then fix it. If one of the players complains that they would have spent points differently based on the different rules, then, you can allow them to reallocate points with careful supervision. IMHO, a good game rests on three pillars: setting, character, and storyline. If the system gets in the way of those, it needs to be fixed.