they’re the only ones with 50 faculty members at their ready disposal.
i don’t understand why they are wasting energy concentrating on one faction of the student population. they should either have the gay kids go to the school counselors like everybody else, or make the safe zones a safe place for anybody with a problem.
but the main point behind even bringing up the safe zones was to show that the school was not condemning any and all openness of sexual preferences, only one.
This isn’t about anybody’s views, Sauron. It’s about kids dealing with an orientation which they didn’t choose, that causes them huge quantities of emotional distress. It’s about suicide rates among these kids being disproportionately high. It’s about living in fear of getting the crap beaten out of you for being who you are. Teachers in this school reached out to kids who needed help.
The definition of troll, from what I understand of the SDMB canon, is someone who posts something just to get a reaction. Which is, in my opinion, what the “straight pride” kid was doing. The administration fed the troll by banning the shirt. Why do you think the administration played a role in the creation of this troll? Is his dad on the school board?
And, to all those who think the establishment of “safe zones” in high schools is somehow wrong… fuck you. Just fuck you. Try living your life in the kind of fear that makes you afraid to be yourself, even around your friends and your family, and see what you’d give to have just one place you could go to talk about your problems, one person who you know won’t condemn you outright, and then come talk to me about how catering to a minority is wrong. These are kids in pain, dammit. They deserve anything we can give them to make sure they don’t kill themselves, hurt other people, or live in misery for their whole school careers.
I’m not saying other kids don’t have problems. There are organizations out there to help them, too. Alateen. School counselors. Referrals to psychiatrists. This is about having just as much support for kids dealing with the problems involved in discovering that their sexuality doesn’t fall within society’s definition of what’s acceptable.
I first realized I was gay when I was thirteen. Any idea what that must have been like? Can you even try to understand what sort of gulf opens up between you and the rest of the world when you’re keeping a secret like that, at that age? Can you try and see these kids as having a tough problem to deal with, instead of as political activists of some sort?
It’s called compassion.
Moi:
Thanks for the clarification. That does change things from what it first seemed, doesn’t it?
mrvisible, my point is that the school cannot apply one set of rules to a group of students without applying that same set of rules to another group of students (or even one student). If the school approved of support and recognition for one group of students based on sexual orientation, it cannot, using those same principles, deny support and recognition to another group of students with a different sexual orientation.
Go back and read the article quoted in the OP. When the boy wore his “straight pride” T-shirt to school, some students hissed and spit at him. Sounds like he’s being persecuted for his sexual orientation, doesn’t it? It’s not just bigotry when it happens to the member(s) of a minority.
[hijack]
What’s the name of the law that says any given debate, if allowed to continue long enough, will include Nazis?
[/hijack]
[retort]
It does, however, carry the connotation of several thousand years of mental terrorism; several thousand years of people doing the same thing in principle if not in action as Hitler did: declare openly that it’s not okay to be something. Hitler said Jewish, straights have said gay. We may not be ushering people into baths, but we have declared that certain things are unacceptable. We’ve said it’s wrong to be gay, and that’s inborn. We’ve said it’s wrong to be black, and that’s inborn. We’ve said it’s wrong to be lots of minorities.
And that is what’s at issue here. “Straight Pride” is not okay because nobody’s ever been ashamed of being straight. There’s never been any reason to be. Straight people have never had the majority of humanity shoving homosexuality down their throats.
Slight tangent, but is anybody out there between 1/2 and 1/8 Native American? Have some of you had problems finding documentation of your heritage? I know people who have. Because for a while, many people were embarassed to be Native American, simply because that’s what the majority said was wrong.
The same goes for homosexuals. Now, however, it’s becoming more acceptable. It’s not as much of a stigma to declare homosexuality.
Are there straight safe zones? No. But have straight people ever really been persecuted? No.
There are gay safe zones. Good. Gay people have been–and often still are–persecuted for what they are.
And finally, speaking as one who has only recently left the (American) public school system, I don’t care what the Supreme Court says, free speech doesn’t exist in it. The decision may have been made, but that creates free speech de jure. Censorship de facto definitely still exists.
Really? So, schools have to stock tampons for guys now, too, huh? That’s a ridiculous standard to hold any organization to. I suppose next you’ll be denouncing handicapped stalls in bathrooms because they’re so roomy compared to the rest of the stalls.
Different people have different needs. Holding them to your procrustean standards may give you a lovely sense of uniformity, but it’s entirely unrealistic. Don’t begrudge some kid out there help that they really need because of some misguided sense of balance.
If I walk into a nightclub wearing a t-shirt that says “white power”, and get the shit beaten out of me, whose fault is that? Should I be able to sue the nightclub for it?
If you’re going to do something offensive, you have to expect people to be offended by it. It’s called taking responsibility for your actions. The kid wasn’t being persecuted because he was straight, he was being persecuted for promoting discrimination.
Well no…if you paid attention, Sauron was referring to same standards of BEHAVIOR or RULES for students…your tampon and handicapped stalls behavior are not standards of behavior
So any student wearing a t-shirt deemed offensive to another group of students is in trouble?
so I guess NO to these? http://www.freeworldtrading.com/themes/atheism.asp
Okay, so what RULES are being applied unevenly here? Think carefully, it’s a trick question.
I actually disagree with the administration’s action in disallowing the sweatshirt (if you paid attention, you’d know that), but let me ask you… where would you draw the line? What is the least offensive t-shirt that you would disallow? Or are you advocating free speech in schools to its logical extreme as well?
I believe Sauron was referring to the extent that students were allowed to make political/social statements (hence the Tinker reference earlier). I don’t think it’s much a stretch to assume that given the “safe zone” policy, students would probably not face consequences for wearing a rainbow/pink triangle/gay pride t-shirt.
Like I said, I think the kid is acting in a jerk-like fashion (he wouldn’t wear the shirt, I’m guessing, if there were no “safe zone”…), but it doesn’t seem to be the same as a “Kill Fags” shirt.
Good question. Perhaps off topic, but this is one reason why I think school uniforms or prescribed dress codes are easier to enforce (although, they too have problems) than a constantly evolving list of “Don’t Wear.”
The choice is either a specific itemized list of what students may not wear, or a somewhat more vague notion like “clothing disruptive to the educational process” …which is actually the text included at the school I work at.
The later text usually involves a case by case examination of the clothing…and it’s effect on the “learning environment”…which of course, in our increasingly litigious society, is an invitation to lawsuit if one group feels slighted in comparison to another.
Maybe this is one of those “community standard of decency” issues, like defining porn. Perhaps what might be offensive in Berkely, is not in Cobb County, Georgia.
I disagree. Every day is not straight pride day, nor is it white pride day. I have never met anybody that goes strutting around proclaiming thier whiteness nor their straightness. This is a silly and pointless argument. Are you proud to be alive? are you proud to breathe. Is every day proud to breathe day? Please.
On the other hand… I think its a mocking insult to wear a shirt like this. Its to be assumed that every person is straight (hey, I don’t make the assumtions here) untill they proclaim otherwise. To wear a shirt that says “straight pride” is a thumb on the nose to the gays desire to feel good about themselfs. So yes, I think this guy should have gotten suspended. Some things just should not be mocked.
I don’t see all the contradictions that so many of you seem to be seeing here.
We’re talking two different things here: T-shirt messages, and signs on classroom walls.
The boy was wearing a T-shirt whose message was obviously intended to provoke people. “Straight Pride” doesn’t just mean that he is proud to be straight; the unwritten message behind it is that it is bad NOT to be straight, and therefore he is superior. I am assuming that the principal would also refuse to allow a student to wear a “Gay Pride” shirt.
The “Safe Zone” signs on the wall were not intended to recruit students to be gay. They were posted because a few faculty members realized that gay students will inevitably face a lot of prejudice from peers and even their own family members, and that it would be helpful for them to know that there was someone in the school who would listen the their concerns in a non-judgmental way. They wanted to provide a safe haven for these students to be able to ask for help, rather than to resort to suicide or violence against others.
But what of all the people who cry that there is no “Safe Zone” for straight kids, or whatever? First, there is considerably less need for one, because very few straight kids will face such hatred and prejudice from their peers or family members (or even themselves) for their sexual orientation. And besides that, I would read the “Safe Zone” sign not to mean that this particular teacher was a safe haven just for gays, but for others with serious issues to discuss as well. A teacher who cares enough to stick his/her neck out an advertise his/her availability to listen to someone’s problems regarding their sexual orientation is a very likely candidate to be one who would give a damn enough to listen to other problems that students felt needed a compassionate ear and serious interest. If I were in that school, and I had been raped, or faced a problem pregnancy, or any other of the really difficult-to-talk-about problems that a teen might be afraid to face her parents with, these are the people I would go to for help — and I don’t think that I would be treated uncompassionately. The Safe Zones don’t advertise homosexuality; they advertise a willingness to listen, which is sorely needed in our schools.
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Perfect response, Drastic! I love it!
So you favor suspending kids for feeling superior (in a jerky way) ?
Would you say the same thing to a kid wearing the atheist shirt I linked to above? I’m guessing (check out the slogans of the shirts) that he feels it is a BAD thing to believe in God, and that he is therefore “superior.”
And no, I would not assume that the principal would suspend a student for wearing a gay pride shirt. (nor do I think the principal should do so…)
umm who are all these people crying this…at least in this thread?
Hmm, reading this thread makes me believe none of you have been in school in at least 10 years. Or at least go to much diffrent schools than mine.
A straight pride shirt would probably be banned immediately by my school unless the principal is a homophobe(entirely possible). Lots and lots of things are banned at my school.
The only real harassment that is tolerated at my school is against people who are gay or bisexual(by tolerated I mean by the the teachers, sure they try to stop it, but only to get on with class). Not to say that some teachers actually think that homophobia is a bad thing, but I would say that they are a minority.
Not to mention that it is soon going to be the biggest school in the state and half the people who park do so in a cow pasture across the street:)
If I’d be tne principal, I’d have made him wear that shirt as I threw him into one of the safe zones and let the gay kids explain to him how hurtful his attitude was.
And if that didn’t work, I’d have found out what the paddling laws were in my state. 
[sub](Kidding! Kidding! What a kidder I am! Sheesh!)[/sub]
Esprix
Actually, no. It seems like he was being persecuted for being a twit. (Which doesn’t make it right for students to spit at him, bullying is wrong and all) but in the article it didn’t come across as “<hiss> you’re evil because you’re straight” rather “<hiss> you’re evil because you’re a hateful moron.”
Succinct, and well put. (Although the joke aspect isn’t unheard of - a straight friend of mine made me make him a button that read, “Proud To Breed.” 
)
If this kid was as eloquent as Cessandra in celebrating his ancestor’s hard work and determination, that’d be one thing. It is obvious, however, that the kid wore it because he’s an asshole homophobe with a bad attitude and specifically wanted to stir up trouble by intentionally insulting some of his fellow students.
Here’s a question - if he’d worn a shirt that read “white pride,” knowing that the connotation in that statement (thanks to the Neo-Nazis) is “white power/superiority,” should he have been allowed to wear that?
The other main point about the school having the right to ban whatever it sees fit is to keep order in the building. If the shirt was causing an uproar among the students, they had every right to remove it - it was directly barring the school’s main function, which is to teach kids stuff (and yes, I realize social functionality is one of those things, but I’m speaking specifically here of the three R’s and such). Sadly, the jagoff wearing the shirt managed to turn it into an even bigger distraction - bully for him. :rolleyes:
Esprix
Amadeus:
Think about what you’re saying.
You’ve never seen a straight person wearing a wedding ring, holding a wedding, announcing their engagement or the birth of their children, or even holding their s.o’s hand? Every person who does so is proclaiming their heterosexuality.
Likewise, every gay person who does so is proclaiming their homosexuality. The difference is that gay people are safe doing so in certain designated portions of the city, within certain peer groups, and/or for one week a year.
Straight people can safely do it all the time everywhere.
Uh, no, I never said anything about suspending anyone. I have no idea whether the kid got suspended or not. I said that I assumed that the principal would “refuse to allow” a Gay Pride shirt on similar grounds. Presumably if either kid didn’t listen to this message, suspension might be the result. I live in a naive little world where I just assumed that the kids would follow the principal’s directives, and consequences didn’t enter my head.
I don’t know if the principal’s response was the BEST response, but I certainly don’t think it was an inappropriate response. The message on the kid’s shirt was obviously intended to provoke others, and as such could prove a disruption in school. I would assume that out of fairness, and with the goal of removing disruptions from the school (and to save his behind from allegations of discrimination), he would ban a “Gay Pride” shirt just as quickly, as well as the anti-religion shirts you posted the link to. For gosh sake, the teachers have a hard enough time keeping kids’ attention to teach what they are supposed to teach, let alone having to compete with shirts that provoke knock down drag-out debates (or worse) between the straights and the gays, the religious and the vehemently atheist, etc.
Well, the OP mentioned it in a subsequent post:
The issue is also alluded to here, here, here… and I’m getting tired of pasting references.
Esprix - I agree with you totally in that the kid wearing the T-shirt was doing so to be a pain in the ass… it just struck me as something I’d wear in the company of some pals. 
I don’t think he should have been able to wear the shirt first nor last. That’s just my opinion, and it happens to agree with those in charge. Huzzah.
As for a white pride t-shirt, I realize it looks as if I’m contradicting myself, but I’d never find that acceptable. I don’t find it funny at all… I think “White Homeboy” might look funny in some circles, but that’s another matter. I have a somewhat warped sense of humour.
My original point, Esprix, was certainly not to condone homophobia. I hope it didn’t come across as that. I think I’d be most comfortable sitting on the fence regarding the ‘safe zone’ issue… I like to think that safe zones follow around people who have sensible frames of mind. Sometimes I think setting up an area as a ‘physical’ safe zone just gives a target for people who hate… it’s more about teaching acceptance so that the folks who do stupid things are in the minority. Uhh… Brother Love signing off.