The issue is also alluded to here, here, here… and I’m getting tired of pasting references.
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Well, as far as I can tell from your links, no one is “crying” to create a “straight” Safe Zone…probably because, as you pointed out, there is no need for one…although other posters have mentioned a need for OTHER kinds of services for all kids.
I think he should wear the shirt. I’m all for saying what you think without punishment.
It should have been neon green with flashing lights. You should be to able see this asshole from a mile away. Someone wants to wear a “White Pride” tee-shirt to the track meet? By all means. I will make my inferences and treat you accordingly.
The principal is within his rights to do what he thought was neccessary to run his school with a minimum of trouble. If his intent was to defuse the situation, then he made the wrong choice.
Freedom of speech is cool. You get to say what you feel and I get to say what I think about it.
I first would like to attack this ananlogy, the kkk is not the opposite of black pride, nor is being a national socialst (a registered political party in the us) the opposite of being a jew, use your head before you post. A Black Panthers chapter would be answered by the kkk.
There have been a lot of posts in this thread relating any anglo-saxon/straight/christian pride to hatered. While some groups in that group promote hate, most do not. Why don’t talk about the Nation of Islam as well? They give the same kind of bad name to black pride as the Christian Brotherhood gives to anyone who says they are proud to be white.
This kid, asonine as he may be, is in the right. My brother had a bumper sticker on his car for a while that read “Heterosexual, Thank You” this was his answer to the little pink triangles and rainbow stickers the gay community like to flaunt. He caught a lot of flack for it but had a point: “If they can advertise, why can’t I?” I personally seeno reason for a school o counselingany children gay/straight/bi on relationships, i would like to see a list of the teacher’s credentials that are doing this, have they had any training in counseling? I see a lot of “safe zones are a good thing” posts, and it seems none of you have thought of the damage that could be done by an un-qualified counselour. The school exists to teach, not counsel, and there are many programs out there that offer free counseling.
Let’s talk about the “pride” movement for a minute. In this thread it has been said that this movement (for minorities) is to boost confidence. This is bullshit, you cannot afford to boost confidence based on race, this breeds hate and xenophobia. It is just as stupid for a gay person to be “proud” to be gay is it is for me to be “proud” to be white. If you want a level playing feild then it means level for everyone.
OK, as far as the whole Jewish club/Nazi party thing, yeah, that was an extreme argument. But Sauron himself admitted that I’d understood his thought correctly. The use of the analogy was not a deliberate misinterpretation of Sauron’s thought, which, as I understand it, is the thrust of the argument in a thread here. But this is a tangent, so this is the last I will say on this subject in this thread.
That’s the whole problem, isn’t it? The playing field has been far from level for everyone for a very long time. And the sides promoting bigotry and hatred were formed as a reaction to the equality movements.
When was the KKK formed? In 1866, after the liberation of the slaves. “White Pride” wasn’t necessary before then because Blacks weren’t viewed as equal. Same thing for “Straight Pride” - in all the books I’ve read on gay and lesbian history and the equality movements, I’ve never read of the existence of Straight Pride before events like Stonewall.
Why? Because prior to that, the people who felt themselves in the morally/racially superior position didn’t have their superiority openly challenged. Blacks were enslaved, homosexuals were jailed even for sending open discussions of their lifestyle through the mail. Nobody challenged the intolerance.
Now things are different. The whole superiority thing has been openly challenged and is crumbling. The only way to reassert their superiority for those who still feel they are superior is through the open expression of bigotry and hatred. Gay Pride says “we gays and lesbians are equal to the rest of humanity”. Straight Pride says “No, you are not.”
As such, Straight Pride is hate speech and has no business being expressed in an educational institution of any sort. Although I agree with the poster that dealing with the matter should have been in the hands of the students themselves, rather than handled by the administration alone.
And to the poster who questioned the counseling credentials of the school faculty - hey, at least they’re making an effort. If you think they can’t do the job, why not get involved yourself and help build a better program?
Wait, i do not get it. It is not okay to have “white pride” because you don’t choose to be white. But yet it is applauded if you have “black pride” or “gay pride.” Is being black and gay a choice now?
I think this discussion has bifurcated into two separate topics, so for the sake of clarity, let me sum up.
The first topic is Elliot Chambers, and his right to wear a Straight Pride hoodie.
Personally, I agree with the OP that the administration’s reaction was heavy-handed. I do believe that people have the right to express themselves, however much I disagree with their views. However, the principal was within his authority to ban it.
The second aspect of the discussion that has arisen is the establishment of “safe zones” within the high school There’s been a lot of conjecture as to the nature of these safe zones, so I thought I’d clarify with a quote from the article referred to in the OP.
(Bolding mine. Thanks, I thought it was quite clever, too.)
Then I thought I’d point out the source of this information. It’s from the American Family Association, from a section on their website entitled “The Homosexual Agenda”. It’s a nice little site, full of what the OP referred to as right-wing propaganda. Hate made up to sound like love. Nothing new. But even this site describes these safe zones as a place where **“gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender” students can express their sexual preferences without harassment, retaliation, ridicule etc. **
So, to those opposed to the safe zones, let me ask; what kind of kid deserves harassment, retaliation and ridicule?
Perhaps you think that if you harass someone enough, they’ll start to think that it makes sense to hate themselves for what they are?
Maybe if a child is exposed to enough retaliation for being different, he’ll become more like the intolerant bullies that pick on him?
Do you think ridiculing someone will make them listen to your arguments against something they had no choice in to begin with?
It is not okay to have “white pride” when the only reason you have it is to put yourself up as the superior to anyone who is not white; same for “straight pride,” which seems fairly clear in the instance of the OP from the little twit’s quoted statements. He wasn’t proud of the way he turned out, he wanted to make a statement against the safe zones in the school - that, IMHO, isn’t pride, it’s arrogance.
ok, ok let me think this through, because either I am comming at this at a wrong angle or I am really tired…
Just being straight does not mean that a person Is PROUD to be straight, or that every day is some sort of straight pride day. We are not harrassed, not all of us are proud to be what we are, etc. What I am getting at is that there is no such Straight pride day, not one day out of the year is SPD, nor is EVERY day. We don’t have parades, or parties every single day in celebration of being straight, we just are.
Where as the Gay community has a celebration every year (im guessing) in lieu of not so much being proud of thier gayness, but of surviving yet another year of harrassment, belittlement, and misunderstanding. Straights do not have this, there is no parties, no formal recognition, nothing, nada, therefore it does not exist.
People having their pride day does not bother me, what pisses me off is when they try to say that we have pride day every day. Bullshit. (not that I want it, I just don’t like to be accused of shit I don’t do) like the Mom that says [on mothers day] well every day is Son day. Fuck that too, no, everyday is not son day, if so, I would get a fucking present every day, and get breakfast in bed, not have to work, have every wish bestowed upon me, etc.
This is a pet peeve of mine, and the only reason I spoke up.
Well gotta go, today is my day of the week to get the party hats and cake.
I attended a high school where some teachers also displayed “Safe Zone” stickers on their doors, and have seen them at other schools in various parts of the country. Note that I say stickers. These things are smaller than postcards. I suppose it’s possible that the high school mentioned in the OP really has large Safe Zone posters, but I doubt it.
The Safe Zone stickers are not meant to indicate “Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras inside!” They are simply meant to let students know that this particular teacher or faculty member is willing to talk to gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered students about their particular problems without condemning them for their sexual orientation. This is something that these students cannot take for granted from other staff members, not even school counselors. Quite a few gay teenagers have stories about trying to come out to an adult they thought would be sympathetic, only to be met with shock and horror. I wish that the Safe Zone project were unneccesary, but it is not.
This is not an equivelant issue to Captain Dickhead and his “Straight Pride” shirt. Perhaps if students or faculty members at this school had been wearing “Gay Pride” shirts I could see where Captain Dickhead was coming from, although I’d still think he was a moron. But a sticker indicating that the faculty member inside will not be subjecting gay students to fire and brimstone sermons is not anywhere near being an expression of gay pride.
I would be willing to bet that no student at that school ever wore a “Gay Pride” shirt. In all my years in the public school system, including several at an alternative school that may be the most gay-friendly high school outside the Harvey Milk High School, I never saw a single “Gay Pride” shirt on anyone. It’s hard enough for a gay high school student to be out at all; few have the nerve to advertise their sexual orientation in huge letters across their chests. And with good reason. A kid with a “Gay Pride” shirt might as well be wearing a shirt that says “Please beat and mock me!” Again, I wish that this were not true, but it is.
I think not, I think that any pride movement is a bigotted movement, and bigotry breeds bigotry. If tolerance is against a students views, and tolerance is being taught then the student has a right to portest. In this country we have the right to hate, as long as we do not harm anyone. Hate in and of itself is wrong in my opinion, but this kid was just expressing himself in an evironment that he feels is slighting him for being straight.
Then the kid is sadly deluded. Why should the presence of safe zones, where gay students can take refuge from such common occurrences as hearing “gay” “queer” and “faggot” used in a derogatory manner, upset him?
Would he be crushed if he couldn’t insult someone in this fashion? Does he feel that, in the absence of such insults, the homosexual population of the school will finally get up the nerve to redecorate the cafeteria?
I often wonder if people with this sort of attitude have any idea how pathetic they seem in their attempts to feel morally superior to a group of people who pose them no threat whatsoever.
My concern isn’t with Captian Dickhead (great name for thi punk, btw). It’s also not with the concept of identifying people with whom g/l/b/t students can be assured of non-judgementalism, especially given the sobering statistics about g/l/b/t teen suicide.
I have a very narrow, specific concern and that’s that the pink triangle is an accepted symbol of a political/social movement the same way the clenched black fist in a white circle is a black power symbol, a red hammer and sickle on a white field is for Communists, and a turtle with elephants on it’s back holding up a disk is for Pratchettarians . It’s a movement that in many ways I agree with and it’s not necessarily the specific symbol of an organized movement. But various “Gay Pride” and “Pro Gay” groups use the Pink Triangle as a primary or secondary symbol. And it does have political implications. As such, putting up this symbol in congjuction with the “safe zone” is a political statement. Again, it’s one that I agree with in this context, but…
I absolutely do not approve of allowing one political statement in the school without granting equal access to all of them. Yes, this would have to include the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Nation of Islam, Marxists for Ayn Rand and all the others. I realize that this would reduce the school to chaos.
I think the only way to handle this situation would have been to remove the pink triangle logo. Perhaps put up a sign that says “Tolerance Zone” or “Understanding Zone”. That wouldn’t have the political implications that the Pink Triangle Safe-Zones would have but would still convey the same message.
All this said, I doubt that this would address Capt’n Dickhead’s concerns, but short of ‘roundin’ up the fags’, I doubt that Capt’n Dickhead could be mollified. It would, however make me much more comfortable and would be a much less charged argument.
Nope not cap’n dickhead, not hardly. I in fact am a very tolerant person. The apt. manager where I live is gay, and one of my best friends. I just have enough intelligence to know when someone’s rights are being violated. Simply put, it is not allright to deprive someone who is not a minority of their rights only to give those rights to a minority. You can even check out out my website to see some of my views http://www.myevilminion.com , I consider myself a conservative, but also know better than to degrade someone becuase their veiws do not match mine. I much prefer to debate a point rather than just go with gut feelings which both sides of this debate seem to have done. If you reverse the situtation you would all be up in arms about a gay being discriminated against, but since this dude is a W.A.S.P. anything they do to him is ok. This makes no sense, hold everyone to the same standard, or admit that you yourself are a bigot.
and all the others. I realize that this would reduce the school to chaos.