he's not allowed to be proud that he's straight

The BBQ Pit
101

Hi, flesh99. Welcome to the boards. I wish I could say I was looking forward to your contribution to our community here, but based on the drivel you’ve posted so far, I don’t have much hope for your ability to add more than a narrow viewpoint based on fear and ignorance. We’ve already got plenty of those, though fortunately most people on these boards are rational, intelligent, tolerant, witty folks with a keen sense of morality.

A couple of pointers. Before leaping into a heated debate, especially in the pit, read and try to comprehend the previous posts. Most of what you’ve been babbling about has already been addressed ad nauseum.

Also, try and make clear what your position actually is, and who you’re arguing against.

So, as a probably-futile effort to let you know a little bit more about the issues, I’m going to address some of the half-baked ideas found in your most recent post.

Lovely. The “some of my best friends are gay, so I get to express my ill-considered positions on a subject I don’t comprehend, with impunity” opener. I’m sure that if you think really hard about this, you’ll realize just how condescending it sounds. Or maybe not.

Can you, in any way, back this up? Can you tell me what rights were denied to Elliott Chambers that were given to anyone else?

For the last freaking time, the school established safe zones to give the gay population some refuge from the constant taunting and derision that is part and parcel of being a gay high school student. If the administration was presented with evidence that straight students were being victimized, they would probably have established similar sanctuaries. But… and get this one, fleshboy… straight kids don’t get picked on for being straight.

The reason Mr. Chambers’ shirt was banned was because it was a deliberate provocation to members of the student body, and so, deleterious to creating a peaceful educational environment.

Okay. Go ahead. What is your point? What are you defending, what are you attacking, and what is your reason for doing so?

And if you haven’t seen any of the facts that have been brought into this argument, any of the well-reasoned arguments that have been levelled at the ignorance expressed herein, I’d recommend going back over the thread once you’ve taken a refresher course in Hooked On Phonics.

So, I’m assuming you’re up in arms against a school environment that is so threatening to some of the students, that safe zones need to be established where they can get an education without being harassed, retaliated against, and riduculed? You’re not? Then you’re a bigot.

If a gay kid was asked not to wear a “Gay Pride” t-shirt to school, as it was disruptive to the educational environment, I wouldn’t be surprised and I would understand the administration’s stance on the matter.

I’d gladly hold the gay students in the school in question to the same standards as the administration has imposed upon Mr. Chambers. I don’t think they should wear “Gay Pride” t-shirts to school. I believe this would also be disruptive to the educational environment (especially since some kids might get upset at the sight of a gay kid getting the shit kicked out of him).

So, fleshy. I know this is a long post, and a lot of words are involved. Some even have three or more syllables. Get a dictionary, and take your time, and try and put together a coherent argument, defending your narrow little mindset.

It will be a challenge, because you’ll find it’s tough to make an intelligent argument defending a position based on stupidity and ignorance.

I’ve looked over your website, and I have seen more disgusting displays of arrogant ignorance elsewhere, but only on daytime TV. I hope you’re keeping an archive of your writings, because someday, with luck and a lot of therapy, you’ll look over them and realize just what a pathetic, frightened piece of vileness you are right now.

If you couldn’t tell, I am sick and fucking tired of self-righteous little turds like you.

102

I don’t even think I am going to bother and quote. #1. I think it is his right to state his sexual preference. #2 Do not attack my intellingence I have not attacked yours. #3 I didn’t say some of my best friends are gay and then start attacking gays. If you had followed your own advice and read all of my posts, you might understand where I am coming from. Equal rights for all. End of story. I understand that a lot of people don’t agree with my views, and welcome debate. I would also be willing to bet that some of the stuff you found vile at my site was satire. I do hold some very controversial views, but I don’t think that people that disagree with me are un-educated or un-intelligent in the least. However your attack on my intellect shows only that you are as closed minded as the people you despise, you have the exact same mindset as what you are accusing me of. I diasgree with you, yes, but I have not called you an idiot or resorted to personal attacks.

As for the shirt being a deliberate attack, it is my opinion, even though i disagree with what the kid believes, that he felt the safe zones were an attack on his beliefs and responded in a non-violent manner.

Before you go accusing me of hatemongering, please tell me where I have said, outside of satire, anything that could be construed as such. Also it would be nice if you could explain why you must resort to personal attacks instead of debating the issue at hand.

103

Too bad it wasn’t a Straight DOPE teeshirt!

What about a Tolerance Zone for all harassed students? Not saying that gay students don’t especially need something like that, but I remember being threatened…it would be nice to also have a place safe from bullies…not that that’s likely to happen.

104

MrVisible posted:

It would appear, at least based on available anecdotal evidence about gay teen suicide and other dysfunction, that this is actually the case. :rolleyes:

This also seems to be a fairly well-established phenomenon. :rolleyes:

Amedeus posted:

Yes, quite possibly you are coming at it from the wrong angle. Allow me to posit a view that you seem not to have considered.

Yes, we just are straight. And the gay folk just are gay. In a perfect world, that is. But this is not a perfect world. And in this imperfect world, gay folk tend not to be permitted to “just be” gay. In fact, the message that they are given, on the whole, is that the appropriate emotion for them to feel about themselves and their sexual orientation is shame. To a certain degree, this message is an integral facet of the social structure. Hell, it’s even built into the language. You and I as heterosexuals, get to call ourselves “straight.” Don’t kid yourself that “bent” isn’t a common slang pejorative for homosexual. What’s the common slang pejorative for heterosexual? Well, there isn’t a common one, as such. The only one that comes to mind at all is “Breeder,” and doesn’t that just make you want to go find a private place where you can cry?

My point is that the use of the word “pride” can also mean “this is not something to be ashamed about.” In fact, that is the meaning I think matt and Esprix have in mind when they say every day is “straight pride day” (even if Esprix didn’t actually say it :wink: ). Read the story “Christmas Every Day” for an understanding of why the daily “straight pride” days don’t generate the hooplah you seem to imply is necessary in order for the day to be said to exist.

My guess would be that you’re not a parent. :rolleyes:

105

Addendum to my last post.

I am not self righteous, I have never said that my beliefs are the only ones that have a possibility of being right, after reading the post I was responding to for a third time; I can only say that you should take a good look in the mirror before slinging allegations of narrow-mindedness and bigotry.

Yes I oppose safe zones, but not because I oppose gays. I oppose them because I think that that particular type of counseling is out of place at a school. I would oppose the smae sort of program for straight kids. I simply think that the kid was within his rights.

Even with the content of the post I am responding to, I still do not think the MrVisible is an idiot, I do think he skimmed my posts and missed my point, maybe it was not clear enough, I will try and articulate my points better in the future.

106

fleshboy, I stated my opinion of your intelligence as I have seen it demonstrated herein. Give me reason to think otherwise, and I will reconsider my conclusion.

I addressed several questions to you in the previous post. Reply to them with reasoned arguments, and I will have incentive to re-examine the contempt in which I hold you now.

Until then your simplistic “Equal rights for all. End of story.” philosophy speaks volumes about the depths of your ignorance on this subject. Do gay students have the right to go about insulting their straight classmates? Then why can the straight students do so to such a degree that the establishment of safe zones are necessary? Can you find a solution to that? Can you give me an instance in which I have advocated inequality of any sort?

And as to personal attacks, this is the Pit. Flame central. If you want a moderated debate, there’s the Great Debates forum, designed for just that. Feel free to express your opinions there, but be prepared to back them up well. Really, really well. But here in the Pit, the gloves are off, and displays of ignorance are met with the flamethrowers of sarcastic rationality.

Answer the challenges I’ve put forth. Restore my faith in humanity’s ability to overcome its own incompetence. Or stop spouting off about opinions you’re so ill-prepared to defend.

107

Answer my challenges as well, you leveled insults and accusations at me and I aked you to back them up, or is the pit the only type of forum that you can debate in. I think this forum fits your mindset well, and you are well suited for, but I will compose a brand new post, dumb it down so you can get the point and post it, just for you MrVisible, just for you.

wanders off to find some childrens books to quote from

108

How, exactly does one level a playing field?

Does one assume (or declare) the field to be already flat, and insert shims under the lower end?

Or does one search for and identify the portions that are not flat, and grade and fill accordingly?

So many engineering problems, so little time…

109

Please insert a comma following the word “exactly” in my post above.

“Preview” is my friend…

“Preview” is my friend…

“Preview” is my friend…

110

Yeah, I accused you of being dumb. I stand by that, and assert that I don’t need to prove it. By standing by ill-considered positions without a shred of reasoning or evidence, you’re doing a wonderful job already. Congrats.

You’ve stated that:

Earlier, I posted the section of the article quoted in the OP which described the nature of these safe zones. I’ll repost it here:

So, which part of these safe zones do you oppose? The idea that a classroom should be free of “, retaliation, ridicule etc.” for gay students, or the part where the teachers are referring them to a safe and respectful environment?

111

I firmly believe, until I see evidence otherwise that these zones were not created to address an existing problem, only to try and help gay students. I disagree, the gay students should go to their counselours just like everoyne else. I am white (big suprise right) yet, I want to an black school, I was ridiculed, spit on, and beat up for my skin color, so yes i know what it feels like. I was also a punk, so 90% of the white kids did the same to me. It is wrong to seperate out a single group like gays and give them “safe zones” the school administration ought to make it a point to make the whol fucking school safe for everyone. If they didn’t have the zones, and had a dress code, I wouldn’t be on this kid’s side (see comment about him feeling like safe zones are an attack on his beliefs which are covered by the first amendment to the U.S. constitution). As for the rest of the points you will have to wait a little bit, I am watching blue’s clues hoping to find a way to convey this in a manner you will understand.

Oh yeah, and I am not dumb as I can speak. I might be ignorant by your standards, but you have demonstrated a lack of intelligance by mine.

112

I was using a good friend of mine to illustrate the point that I am not a bigot, in our daily relationship his sexual preference has no bearing whatsoever

Then let’s go all out you idiot, safe zones for goths, punks, nerds, geeks, christians (to protect them from the likes of you), and hell why not safe zones for teachers to protect them for mean evil students, get a grip these zones single out a group and make them more important than other groups, if you could reason past the end of your nose you would see why i opppose them, I have said it many times yet you don’t quote that, only that I oppose them, what’s wrong, can’t find an argument for my reasons…thought so

There have been no facts presented except the kid wearing the shirt and the zones existing, get a grip look up the one syllable word “fact”. next…

I am willing to bet there are other groups of kids that get harrassed just as much as gays, in fact i know there are. (note before he takes me wrong I said “just” as much, not more than). Right now in our political climate it is cool to support gays, so the school supports them, leaving otehr groups of kids to the wolves, one student disagrees and wears a shirt in protest (a shirt we don’t even know if he bought for this reason or already owned and wore other places) and he gets in trouble, you tell me who is being pushed around. That is if you can get your head out of your ass long enough to see this little place the rest of us call reality.

I am sorry if I bring up concepts that your tiny little mind cannot understand, like: equality meaning just that equality.

Since you suggested I use the dictionary, I in turn suggest you do the same. Get a grip, you are as closed minded as the racists and bigots you hate.

113

oh god! He’s quoting from the dictionary!

Run!

Be afraid! Very afraid!

BTW look up intelligence and earth while you’re on the job Fleshyboy

114

i think that you are mis-representing what the safe zones are. it’s not like a big roped in area where no one can be mean, but outside they can. this has been clarified several times, so i’m not sure why you are even trying this sort of argument.

i think that i have mis-spoken on how i feel about the safe zones, also. i don’t think they should be done away with. i think it’s great (although i feel that if the school has counselors they should be counseling students. if any of them is discriminating or trying to moralize to students about being gay, they should not be working there anymore. it’s their job to help students without judging them. it’s the teacher’s job to teach.)

i only brought up the safe zones for two reasons. if the school, the teachers, or the students are putting up symbols of one political viewpoint, the other view point should not be censored by the school, the teachers, or the other students.

the other reason is that i feel the safe zones, if they must exist (see my comment about school counselors), should be available to students with any sort of problem. whoever is helping these students with their problems (and i’m afraid that many students don’t have enough adults that they trust to turn to for the school to not have some kind of program), whoever that person is should be available to help and not judge all students. all students. that’s just my opinion.

i agree with this in some ways. i don’t think that allowing a peaceful, non-violent group their say requires that you give any time to a group that flat-out advocates violence.

i don’t think that anyone here actually supports elliots views on homosexuality (at least, i hope not). there is nothing that says he has to get his way. just that he gets to talk about it.

i really wish i’d posted this in great debates. then some of you would actually have to think about the topic at hand before posting. but i was angry, and i didn’t think. next time i’ll know better.

i know i’m going to get flak for this (how dare i take up for one of the few people agreeing with me right? :wink: )

how is anything he has said based on fear or ignorance? i’ve read his posts, and i haven’t disagreed with anything he said. he hasn’t said anything rude or insulting about anyone.

as a matter of fact, all he’s done is done is tell you why he thinks the kid should have a right to wear the shirt, and express concern that students being counseled by non-professionals may be harmed. (i disagree, but i don’t call that fearful or ignorant.)

the reason i am bringing this up is to ask this: he hasn’t said much that i haven’t said myself. many (some?) of you have known me for three years, at least. do you think i am coming off as a fearful, ignorant bigot? if not, then why do you say that he is?

again, you are intentionally mis-representing what the safe zones are. why don’t you read the thread before you post?

ah, so no one who doesn’t get picked on can have his say? good logic, buddy.

all i can say is that i hope they do have some kind of protection for any kid who is picked on for whatever reason. but zero tolerance doesn’t work that way in my experience. i was actually suspended for being beaten up in class. why? because after taking it for a few minutes and then realizing that the teacher was not paying attention, and was not going to help me, i attempted to defend myself. suspension, two weeks.

i think that this is a very good point. straight kids have never had to feel ashamed for the way they are, true. but this kid apparently thinks that the school is somehow slighting him by supporting gays. as dense and misguided as this idea is, he has a right to it. and as long as he does not tease, taunt, or beat on the gay kids, or advocate that others do so, he should not be punished. you can’t force someone to be tolerant, no matter how much we would all like to. (myself included)

are you suggesting that in other areas of the school the administration allows homosexual kids to be bullied? that’s moronic. the safe zones, as explained earlier in this thread, signify faculty members who will discuss homosexuality with students without judging them.

115

i can’t believe how many posts were made between my hitting “reply” and hitting “send.” i’m glad that people have strong opinions on this! now i really wish i’d posted it in great debates.

ps, forgive the typos! i even hit “preview,” but i missed a few.

116

I do believe I am using more reason than MrVisible in relying on making points and not using insults, therefore I can say with some impunity that he is displaying a lack of intelligence.

I case you had implied that I do not reside in (yes i meant in not on read the entry) earth:

I am going to go with this entry just to be different, I exist as a mortal and not as a spirit. As for the planet I am from the same one you are, like it or not.

117

Cool! Fleshyboy can use the dictionary! We’re getting somewhere with the dispelling of ignorance folks. Next he can move onto logic and grammar but hey, one step at a time.

Fleshy mate, you might want to take a close look at your sig. It gives the impression (in your case possibly an accurate impression) of a room temperature IQ to have spelling mistakes in a sig.

118

Now that sucks some ass, here I am claiming to be intelligent and have spelling errors in my sig.

corrects sig and wipes egg off of face

119

Off face. You don’t need to say off of and shouldn’t say off of. It is an egregious mistake.

120

Sorry, Primaflora, but I don’t see a misspelling in flesh99’s .sig line.