Thanks again for the English lesson, might we get back to the topic at hand now?
Kaylasdad 99
it is fixed now :). Earth was originally Eart. Once a sig is fixed, all the posts get fixed.
Uh huh.
Suuuure it was.
HAH!
I was just messing with your mind. It occurred to me that playing spelling troll with somethinng that can be, not only fixed, but retroactively eradicated, leaves the one with a post that, to the first-time reader, makes no sense.
So, flesh99, were you going to respond to my question about how to level a playing field?
Here’s a summary of my positions on the matters discussed herein:
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The t-shirt was asinine, and it was within the administration’s authority to ban it. I would support banning “Gay Pride” t-shirts as well, for the same reasons. That being said, banning was a heavy-handed and unimaginative way to deal with the situation.
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The Safe Zones as described in the article quoted in the OP are places where “‘gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender’ students can express their sexual preferences without harassment, retaliation, ridicule etc.” and have posted a list of “staff who have information about a safe and respectful environment for gay, lesbian, and bisexual, staff, and families.” I am in favor of both of these aspects of the safe zones.
How do you feel about these two points?
To quote flesh99,
Why is it wrong to shield students from harassment? If there are safe zones, then doesn’t that imply that the students feel unsafe elsewhere? If the problem can’t be wiped out wholesale, and everyone be happy and supportive of each other all of a sudden, then doesn’t it make sense to start small, and encourage tolerance in whatever ways you can? I agree, school should be safe for everyone. It’s not. Can you think of a better way to start making it so?
Cessandra said:
I’m using the definition of safe zones presented in the article you linked to in your OP. If you have additional information to share, please do.
You also said:
Are you suggesting that in other areas of the school homosexual kids aren’t bullied? That’s moronic. The safe zones, as I quoted from the article that all this stems from, are places where gay students can feel safe from ridicule, harassment, and retaliation.
I doubt they work perfectly. I’m sure gay kids still take tons of crap within the safe zones. But it’s a nice gesture, and it’s a start. It indicates that the administration is at least willing to give a display of tolerance.
And, to finish off, fleshboy said…
This thread does supply me with a modicum of hope for humanity. If the forces of intolerance can only marshall the sort of ill-conceived, badly phrased, semi-literate arguments that have been expressed herein, I have high hopes that in time, we will have a society where kids won’t have to be afraid to go to school.
This has been an issue of a lot of heated debates, and as of yet no-one I have seen has a solution that works. I know that it is not to elevate the rights of the minority above those of the majority. I personally try to do it one onone, by giving every person I meet the chance to be an intelligent, rational person and try not to take anything else into account. I fail at times, we all do; anyone that claims they have no prejudice is a liar. I do not believe we will ever find a solution that fits across the board, not that doesn’t violate someone’s rights. I will never say the majority deserves less than the minorities, so I try and do my part, one person at a time.
If you meant a real life playing field, and not the metaphorical one we have referenced in this thread, well I would call a landscape contractor, that their job.
Proof of your ignorance, you picked the same pieces of of my posts and didn’t even comment on the reason, which I gave as you requested. You are the fucking idiot here. Why don’t you support safe zones for all the groups I listed? Do you even care that some groups might feel slighted at not being given safe zones? Answer the fucking question! Claire, just answer the fucking questiuon.
Oops forgot an ‘s’ in one of my last two posts, should be on the end of ‘that’ as in “that’s their job”
sorry, i can’t respond to everything you said just now, mrvisible, i have friends coming over. but i promise to go back and read your whole post and answer accordingly. please don’t think that i am ignoring anything else that you said.
this is the definition that i would go by:
this is the sign that is actually hanging in the schools. that seems to say to me that the safe zones indicate “staff who have information about a safe and respectful environment for gay, lesbian, and bisexual, staff, and families.” in other words, they say that you can talk to these teachers without fear of judgement.
i would go by the school’s advertisement rather than what elliot thinks the safe zones are about. after all, he thinks they are trying to recruit students into the homosexual lifestyle, which is obviously ridiculous.
Dear Pinhead:
Even straight students are subjected to homophobia in high school. If a student makes a mistake or does something their peer group does not agree with, they often get called faggot, queer, or dyke. Plenty of straight students have to deal with this as well, and it fosters the hostile environment that makes these safe zones necessary.
Moreover… racism is mostly frowned upon in all schools in this age. Racism is not thought of as cool, and is generally quashed by fellow students before it needs to go to administation. While this is not always true, in a school with these safe zones, I think a teacher involved with the program would stop any sort of bigotry.
Black children are obvious for who and what they are, as is any other race. Gay kids are not obvious. That is what creates some of the antipathy. One doesn’t know if the person sitting next to them is gay or lesbian. We look just like you. We are black, white, asian, every nationality, and every color of skin that melanin allows. We need to see safe zones, because some of us, out of fear(and the kind of moronic pseudo-thinking you foster) have to exist in stealth mode until we find a safe space to be ourselves.
You are the one with the problem and the poorly formed “thoughts.” And as this is the Pit, suck it up or leave.
Okay, here ya go, Sparky. I believe that life, as of yet, isn’t fair. I agree that everybody should feel safe from harassment, ridicule, and intimidation at all times.
This is not yet the case. It may never be. But I see nothing wrong in trying to start making that happen.
So, some groups might feel slighted at not having safe zones. True. The proper response to that is the expansion of the safe zone program to include these groups. Instead, you seem to be advocating the elimination of the program altogether. If you had to be miserable going to school, then everyone has to be miserable equally. Except the students in the majority, who get the additional perks accorded to the top of the educational food chain.
The world isn’t a utopia yet. Until then, compassionate people are working to make it one. I do support safe zones for all the groups you listed. No-one should have to live in fear. Nitwits like yourself, bitching about how unfair it is to extend courtesies to the persecuted, really don’t help. Reconsider your attitude on this subject.
Oh, and cute Breakfast Club reference. Too bad you missed the movie’s message.
And Cessandra,
I’d interpret that to mean that the teachers can give them information on how to gain access to a gay or lesbian support group or counseling center.
But, hey, going with your explanation… what’s wrong with being able to talk to your teachers without fear of judgement?
I did, in fact, intend the metaphorical.
It’s heartening to have you assert that you endorse approaching such things on a case-by-case basis, taking appropriate action as dictated by the peculiar circumstances of each instance. Yet you appear to make the assumption that the school officials did not do this in establishing the safe zones. It’s unfortunate that the most available information about this issue is carried on, and one would suppose, filtered by, the website of an organization with such an axe to grind. We may not be able to determine with any degree of confidence whether the school officials did.
However, there is a posting in this very thread from an emigre, if you will from that very school, IIRC, in which the poster expresses the wish that such zones had been available to him. Not necessarily verifiable as a cite, I realize, but it is instructive, and suggests that a need could be shown to exist.
It has been said (and I am trying to be cautious in bringing this up, as I think I have heard that it has been misused to justify some abhorrent policies [although I couldn’t name one of them]), that “Equality does not lie in treating different things the same. Equality lies in treating different things differently.”
When someone appears to equate the social engineering necessary to “level the playing field” with “creating special rights,” I tend to suspect that the person’s approach to providing a level playing field is to pretend that the old field has been abandoned, and a new, completely level one, adopted.
I believe it was Lyndon Johnson who suggested that to remove the hobbles from a runner when the pack has been running for quite some time, and then tell the runner that he now has the same opportunity to compete as everyone else, is to commit a fraud.
'Course he was from Texas…
I am saying that they either need to be expanded or gotten rid of as the zones single out a group. You have twisted my words quite nicely, bravo. If you read my post about leveling the playing field you would see how i think this needs to be dealt with. You have not read my posts or choose not to read the parts where I actually explain what I mean. The making the zones “gay safe” single out gays and in fact could backfire very badly, if a student like out boy with the shirt decided to “kill a queer for christ” all he would have to do is simply watch who went to those classrooms outside of class and bingo he has his target, I think these zones are wrong. The whole school can be made safe but people like you bitch when they try do that as well.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Coldfire *
**
So per Coldfire people choose to be gay, and are not born that way? Aren’t alot of gay rights groups campaigning otherwise? If you wish to stick to this line of reasoning I suggest we take this to GD.
How often do you hear that in the pit?
That’s an unreasonable extrapolation. First, Coldfire’s post made no reference to how he views the concept of “Gay Pride” (legitimate or il-); second, as I stated earlier on this page, the use of the term “pride” can be taken to mean “this is not something to be ashamed about”; thirdly, Hi Opal; fourthly, I hope I did that according to accepted protocols.
Gotta air it out; some of the posters (on both sides of the fence) are missing a point that quite probably the main reason there’s a problem here is quite simple: adults can’t keep their noses out of kids business.
The parents (on BOTH sides), the teachers (pro-alternative life-stylers), and the principal (what a weak-kneed putz) should be absolutely neutral in view point, acceptance of student values, and tolerance for both sides. Period.
Left to their own devices, kids will eventually figure out what’s right and resonable without the assistance of their “all-knowing” mommy, daddy, teachers, and principal.
Teaching tolerance as a step in achieving equality is not an all-or-nothing proposition. Look at the development of women’s rights, civil rights, and gay rights. Women’s rights movements started in the mid-nineteenth century, civil rights had to wait for the abolition of slavery, and then it took another century or so for gay rights to come the fore. If we waited until we could fight all forms of hate, bigotry, and intolerance at once, the vote would still be held only by white property- or slave-owning males over the age of 21.
You have to start somewhere. “Safe zones” in high schools for teenagers coming to grips with the different forms of their sexuality is a great place to start and they shouldn’t be eliminated because it’s not possible for whatever reason to form safe zones for punks, atheists, goths, or whoever else. Besides, do you not think it possible that, if people can be taught tolerance towards gays and lesbians, it becomes easier for them to be tolerant towards others they perceive as differing from themselves?
So in order to prevent gay and lesbian students from becoming targets, they just need to keep their feelings to themselves and grope blindly both in and out of school for people they hope might be sympathetic?
As for the “fuck you” - logic is useless against arguments and assertions that defy logic. “Hate is a right” is one such argument.
I’m sorry, is “fuck you” the only contribution I made to this thread? Nice to see you’re really paying attention to what’s going on. Rest assured, however, that you have saved some time, since some of flesh99’s assertions would have earned him a thread in the Pit by now anyway. So it all evens out in the end.
Oh right. Go try telling some fundamentalist Christian parents they need to be tolerant of “safe zones” for gay students at the high school their children are attending. Hear that sound of rushing air? That’s me exhaling, 'cos I’m not about to hold my breath on this one.
Ah, see, there’s the problem. Kids lack this funny little substance called life experience. Many parents, teachers, and school administrators possess this magical aspect and it’s often helpful for kids to turn to the figures they respect for advice and guidance. Left to their own devices, most teens will succumb to peer pressure because at that time of life they want nothing so desperately as to fit in with the crowd they want to hang around with. Please tell me your childhood isn’t so far in the past that you don’t remember this.
Olentzero, It seems you conveniently edited the pith of the post
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 'Uigi *
**The parents (on BOTH sides), the teachers (pro-alternative life-stylers), and the principal (what a weak-kneed putz) should be absolutely neutral in view point, acceptance of student values, and tolerance for both sides. Period.
[QUOTE]
If safe haven is given for one side of an arguement, the identical considerations must be given to the other side. If both viewpoints can’t be protected and represented then the school isn’t a school anymore.
STRAIGHT, HETEROSEXUAL, MARRIED, WHITE, ANGLO-SAXON PRIDE.
(Hey, this is the BBQ pit, ain’t it)
My, you and flesh compete well for the “Most Moronic Poster on the SDMB.” He’s winning, but you are still in the running.
Unless you are so oblivious to reality that you cannot see or hear, harassment and bullying in schools is prevalent. No one of any ethnicity, sexual orientation, or faith should have to endure harassment in school.
There is a responsibility to provide a safe environment for the students to learn. At most schools, that does not exist. The hiearchy of popularity dictates pecking order, and those at the top invariably savage those kids who are on the bottom.
Acceptance of student values? Hate is not a value. Nor is ignorance.
Left to their own devices, it turns into a local production of “Lord of the Flies.” Wake up and smell the coffee. You are promoting a system that leaves only a percentage of kids with an education and the rest with emotional and sometimes physical scars. But of course, you will say it only makes them stronger. Dolt.
First off I have stated many times the whole fucking school should be made safe, any staff member that doesn’t comply should be fired. The “zones” are a bullshit pacification measure that doesn’t even slow the bleeding on a sucking chest wound. Schools where I live are being made safe, metal detectors, police on site, and other measures. Gay kids should go talk to their counselors like every other student, sectioning off these zones is exlclusionary and wrong.
You are taking my statements all wrong. History shows that tolerance is not an easily learned trait, at all, so no teching them to be “tolerant” of a group by singling them out will only breed resentment from people who feel they are being slighted.
The counselor should be filling that function and not teachers with posters in their classrooms
Hate is a right, it is a belief, part of some religions even (Nation of Islam, Christian Brotherhood) and therefore covered by the same amdenment that grants us the right to post what we want here. I don’t agree with hating anyone as a group, I however cannot say that I have never hated someone for something they have done to me. Hate is also covered under freedom of speech, the same rights that a homosexual has to be that way and “out”. Notice I say all these groups have rights, again I say, you hold everyone to the same standard or you are a bigot, I hold all these groups to the same standards.