he's not allowed to be proud that he's straight

The BBQ Pit
141

I am at a loss here. There is too much to digest, but I have to (dare I say it) agree with flesh on one thing. The school should be “safe” for all kids. Teachers should welcome all troubled kids, if they are going to go the “safe zone” route. Sure, I know you all agree with that, but you still support the exclusional “gay safe” zones. Now, I’m not against them per-se, (since I am sure that gay kids need them) but I see flesh’s point.

When I was in high school, I am pretty sure I was not as miserable as the closeted gay kids, but I was pretty damned miserable. Try growing up as a fat chick with bad skin in the San Fernando Valley. People have no problem just yelling at you as you walk down the street - because after all, you are forcing them to cast their eyes on your ugliness, so you deserve whatever you get. School could be pretty awful sometimes. I cannot say I was at risk of suicide, but pretty close sometimes. I knew what it felt to wish to die, to not value life. And no one cared, because I chose to be fat and ugly, see?

Had there been a “safe zone” for gay kids at my school - I don’t know what I would have thought. I doubt I would have begrudged the gay kids their support, but I think it would have made me feel even more alientated from the world. To be excluded (once again) would have reinforced my feelings of worthlessness. If I saw that a favorite teacher was a member of the “safe zone” for all kids, and if I trusted that teacher, maybe I’d feel comfortable enough to go see them. But hey - since there aren’t any “safe zones” for fat chicks with bad skin, I’d be shit out of luck. And feeling more worthless.

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There are a whole lot of silly people involved in this.

First, the boy in the hoodie. He went out of his way to draw attention, so congrats, he got some. I think that he is entitled to his opinion, and as long as what he wears is not obscene or promote violence, he should be allowed to wear it. I think that he is also entitled to a smack in the head. If you make an effort to stick your finger in the light socket, you don’t get to complain when you get that whole body tingly thing, sorry. Nobody likes an asshole, even when he ought to be protected under the 1st amendment for being an asshole.

Second, the school officials. By singling the student in the hoodie out, they gave him way more attention than he deserves. Allowing some students to wear a slogan while forbidding others is just flat wrong. In no way should the situation or status of the person making the statement affect whether the statement is permissible. That is discrimination, period. If you blindly switch the words “gay” and “straight”, and something suddenly appears offensive, then it was offensive to start with. If gay pride is OK, then so is straight pride. I’m sure a lot more students are offended by gay pride slogans - even if most of those offended are probably ignorant idiots - so the school officials are clearly not basing their judgement solely on whether the straight pride shirt is causing a disruption at school. They decided based on some misguided principles of social justice rather than simple equality, and that is stupid.

Third, some of the folks on this board. How is it permissible for non-white non-straight some-odd-group to say certain things that straight white males cannot? Did I somehow miss an amendment to the Constitution adding caveats to the 1st amendment? If its OK to talk about gay pride, its OK to talk about straight pride. If one can promote black power, then one can promote white power. Frankly, none of this is appropriate in school, where they ought to be focusing on teaching and not on righting wrongs and pursuing some agenda of social justice. Just because someone appears to be a member of the majority, doesn’t mean that they don’t get persecuted or discriminated against, or that this discrimination is permitted.

I’m a straight white male Christian. Does this mean that I can never complain about anyone else, or that I’ve never been discriminated against? The politically correct idiots have toyed with calling us folks with white skin “anglos” instead of white, because calling some folks white necessarily leads to calling some black, which isn’t currently permitted. This is incorrect, and even more offensive than calling all hispanics Mexican, because it is based on race rather than nationality. I’m actually of Celtic descent, and the English Anglos have beaten the crap out of my people for ages. The Welsh weren’t even permitted, by law, to teach their own language until the 1960’s. And they are still part of the UK, but nobody here marches for their freedom. If anybody talks about “Jewing” someone down in a negotiation, most folks will correctly slap the guy down for being an idiot, but talking about “welshing” on a bet is still OK. Why?

I’m Catholic, not Protestant. Trust me on this, I’ve taken way more crap from Fundamentalists and other assorted Christian groups than any pagan or atheist. They’ve got a history of hating Catholics, and haven’t yet bothered to go after most others, they’re still busy with us. I went to high school in Greenville, SC, home of Bob Jones U, the absolute buckle of the Bible Belt. A traveling exhibit of religious art about Mary came through town, going to various Catholic churches. The Presbyterians took out a full page ad in the local newspaper attacking Catholics as, essentially, idol worshippers. Nobody took our side, nobody rose up in protest. On TV, its OK to make fun of priests and nuns, but if you dare even snicker at a rabbi or imam then you’ll be walking through picketers the next day. Thats fair, sure.

And I’m a virgin. Yes, you read that correctly, a virgin. I actually believe in that whole no sex before marriage thing, and I’ve never yet married. Pretty much everyone gets to give me shit for this. Its apparently OK for folks to make jokes about me being impotent or deformed or simply unable to find a female. If I was just gay or had some serious kink about livestock I’d find at least somebody to agree that it was a valid choice, but simply choosing abstinence just isn’t cool enough, I suppose.

But as a straight white Christian male, I’m the Man, I’m the Oppressor, its OK to limit my speech because I’ve never been discriminated against.

And BTW, left handed folks have historically been persecuted. (Not me, I’m right handed.) The Romans believed that left-handers were evil, and burned them. The word sinister, now used to mean evil, just meant left-handed. And up until recently, teachers used to try to make left-handers learn to function right-handed, even punishing them for using their left-hand, even though that is how they were built. So no matter how much stress the gay community thinks they had with folks trying to make them be straight, nobody ever messed with how they held a pen or threw a baseball.

-reemul
who is also dyslexic, depressive, and generally bitter. where’s my damn special interest group?

143

Well I’m glad reemul came to sort us all out. Where woudl we all be without a white virgin male to tell us what is what?

Accept his world view and it all makes sense. Or something.

You gotta get excited by someone who on his very first post calls us silly and asks us to trust him.

And, no I don’t believe that reemul necessarily had it worse than a pagan. At the very least though I suspect he has had less fun what with preserving his virginity and all :wink:

144

Okay, flesh99. In the words of Robert Heinlein, “Never try and teach a pig to sing: it’s a waste of time, and it annoys the pig.” From your posts, it seems you’re annoyed.

I have read your posts, I’ve tried to comprehend them, but it seems your reasoning, if it can be referred to as such, is a bit obscure to me. It seems as if you’re advocating that all schools should be safe for all kids, and until that happens, nothing should be done to help any group of kids in trouble.

If I have twisted your words, believe me, it was in a vain attempt to wring some sense out of them.

If everybody is taking your statements wrong, perhaps you’re not stating things very clearly. Or perhaps the ideas behind the statements are vague and self-contradictory and need to be examined, carefully. Do you think that teaching people to treat women as equals during the sufragette movement singled them out for resentment? If so, do you think that resentment was a worthwhile price to pay for equal rights? Between being harassed and being resented, I’ll take being resented any day.

I suggest finding that gay friend you talk about, bringing him a printout of this thread, and seeing what he thinks. If he’s a really good friend, he may be able to gently point out some of the fallacies that I haven’t been able to call to your attention.

So, I ask you, flesh99. What do you propose? What is your solution to all this, that will eclipse the efforts of the current school administration and inspire awe in all of us, your devoted audience? How do you propose to make the schools safe for all students? How do you think we should be treating each other, if not with tolerance and respect?

Because unless you have a definite plan, all you’re doing is shooting down a school’s efforts to provide students with a way to feel safe enough to pay attention to their education.

Please feel free to point out anywhere I might have indicated that I said schools shouldn’t be safe for all students. Oh, and while you’re at it, could you clarify just what you mean by “people like me”?

And as to you, Reemul… well, can someone else take him? I’m a little busy with fleshy, here, and I don’t really have the stomach to deal with two at once.

145

This has been the main point I have been trying to get across, I do not begrudge gay teens the right to support at all. I, however, strongly fell that these “safe zones” are unfai and exclusionary. One of the problems with trying to make the whole school a safe zone is parents, believe it or not. I, being a parent, am in favor of school uniforms and year-round school. I also think that fighting on school grounds is reason for suspension as well as a call to the police. Many parents I know oppose these measure, opting instead for band-aid patches and seemingly quick fixes. My children are not yet school age, but I hope, when they are, they have to wear uniforms to school.

In the case we are discussing, the student did not violate a dress code policy, therefore, until a dress code was in place, the officials were in the wrong to dis-allow his shirt. Had they put in place a dress code affecting all students we would not be here discussing this. I am not pro gay bashing, I am pro equal rights for all students.

Reemul made soem very valid points, some I agree with, some I don’t. I see no articulate response to his post, only re-affirmation of at least two of the points he made:

You do exactly what he says people do all the time, show an utter lack of disrespect for his choice in being a virgin, and act like because of his skin color his opinion matters less.

I imagine that if we all accepted your world view it would make sense as well. Wait, come to think about it, he only posted his view on a couple of subjects. I bow before your obvious psychic ability to see someone’s entire view on the world from a single post. He took the time to point out how he has been ridiculed and made fun for his beliefs, the same thing that these safe zones are supposed to prevent, but they would not have prevented for him, thus re-affirming my point again. You only drove my point home farther by then making fun of him instead of at least refuting his points and calling him an idiot. All in all this is not suprising, it is not cool to be a white dude these days and it is ok to poke fun at them, after all every white guy must atone for the sins of his like colored people, even if the true ancestory is one of enslavement, persecution, and ridicule.

146

I don’t think anyone is calling for this. I do see, however, a need to help the minority until the field actually is level, as it has been slanted towards the majority for so long. Eventually, it all evens out, but it sure isn’t even yet, IMHO.

Esprix

147

I might be wrong about that one, I made an assumption, and maybe one that was not correct. I assumed you were the type of person that would oppose security measures at schools like police, metal detectors, drug dogs, and actually having charges pressed for fighting. If I assumed wrong I indeed would like to apologize. As for the other things you pointed out, I do believe my last post covers them very well. If I must I will explain my views to you in a way that even a three year old could understand.

148

No it is not even, not by a long shot, but choosing to only level the field for one group of students, in a school is not the way to go about this. A school is for learning, not the learning of values, as that is a parents job, but the learning of history (some values will be evident there), maths, languages, and many more subjects. A public institution set about to educate, not to dictate morals, is what the public school system is supposed to be. If you refer back to anotehr of my posts, my high school years were hell on me as well, I know for a fact that measures can be taken to secure a school where all kids are treated equal by the faculty, and students that do not treat others with respect can be dealt with accordingly. This is why I am opposed to “safe zones” not because I am a bigot, it is my opinion that they are not even a good stop-gap measure.

149

You know, the more I think of it, the more the gay-exclusive “safe zone” thing kind of ticks me off. Bear in mind, I do not begrudge gay kids the support - I believe their stress and pain is considerable. But fat ugly chicks from the Valley (and all sorts of other social lepers) get hell as well, and some of them commit suicide (or consider it) and why are there no “safe zones” for them? I was bullied and insulted in class, in front of teachers who looked the other way. Sure didn’t feel “safe” to me. As I said before, I doubt I would have begrudged gay kids’ their safe zones (had there been such things in my school) but it probably would have made me feel more alientated in the process. (Excluded, once again. Ugly chicks aren’t worth making a “safe zone” for.)

Once again, I have NO problem with gay kids getting help. They need it, I know they do. But just because a kid is not quite enduring the same brand of Hell that a gay kid is, doesn’t mean they are not at risk for suicide, or what have you. Hell - the “safe zone” teachers are there, rarin’ to be supportive! Why not expand the program? Social lepers of all stripes could certainly benefit.

150

Fleshyboy, I understand your fucking point. You don’t think safe zones are right, because they exclude students. You think schools should be safe for all students, and until they are, there shouldn’t be any safe place for gay students to feel like they’re not going to get harassed. That’s what you’ve been saying, you know. I can read a lot better than you can spell.

I asked you for a better solution to the problem of gay students getting harassed than the safe zones we’ve been discussing. You referred me to your most recent post. Your solution to the harassment apparently involves police, drug dogs, and metal detectors. Which, I agree, will help prevent school shootings and on-campus drug dealing. Both good things. But how will that prevent harassment? How will it keep the straight kids from ridiculing the gay kids? If some kid calls someone else a queer, is a cop going to sic a drug dog on him? Maybe the drug dogs are going to be available if a gay kid, driven to the brink of suicide, needs a sympathetic ear. Perhaps the metal detectors can be tuned to detect bigotry.

In order to level a surface that’s not already level, you need to support the part that’s lowest. Gradually, you can get every point on the surface to the same level.

The gay students in this country are in need of support.

Your opposition to these safe zones is based on the fallacious assumption that gay kids need to be treated like everyone else. In reality, there’s a very distinct set of problems associated with being homosexual and adolescent. The safe zones, as described in the OP, (and oh, how many times am I going to have to repeat this) are designed to discourage harassment of gay students, and to help in referring them to counseling services. How in the hell can this be wrong?

151

Gay and lesbian kids have very specific needs that need to be addressed in very specific ways. It seems to me that non-gay kids with problems could probably be addressed more than adequately by the existing school counseling structure which, historically speaking, has not usually been equipped to address the needs of gay/lesbian kids - hence the need for these safe zones.

Would it make a difference if these safe zones were, instead of “safe zones,” perhaps extracurricular clubs? Say, like a girl’s softball team, or a black gospel choir?

Esprix

152

[quote]
Originally posted by MrVisible
Your opposition to these safe zones is based on the fallacious assumption that gay kids need to be treated like everyone else. In reality, there’s a very distinct set of problems associated with being homosexual and adolescent. The safe zones, as described in the OP, (and oh, how many times am I going to have to repeat this) are designed to discourage harassment of gay students, and to help in referring them to counseling services. How in the hell can this be wrong?

I think that at least one other person in this thread has pointed out how it would affect other students. You also once again cut out the parts of my post which you have no way to deal with rationally. Notice I also support having the police used when there is a fight and charges being pressed. This may sound harsh, but here in reality it is a harsh world. People get called names all the time, if you protect kids from it, they will flounder horribly in the really real world the rest of us live in. BTW what color is the sky in your reality? This might come as a shock to you but the school already employs people called counselors, can you say it with me oh dense one counselors whose job, correct me if i am wrong is to counsel. Why should any group have special avenues that exclude other groups? You have yet to make a valid point on that, you keep saying things like “gay kids get picked on” I respond by pointing out other groups that get picked on, and by the tone of your responses I can only assume you actually care less about these other groups. Making you more the bigot than me.

I know my spelling is bad, I am, after all a product of the same school system that is instituting these safe zones.

153

Yes it would make a difference, a support group would be well and good. In fact much better than these “zones”, as long as any group that felt they have been picked on, held back, etc could also get a support group on campus. The point I have tried to make is that the help should be available to all kinds not just the group that is currently cool in the media.

154

Oops screwed up a quote tag.

ducks and covers

155

Why are teachers more qualified than trained counselors? (Not that I think all counselors are that great - I wouldn’t have felt comforable going to one particular counselor in school, for instance.) What training have these teachers undergone that counselors have not? Why don’t the counselors get this training too?

As long as every social leper could access quality help, sure.

I am not trying to be contentious, but do you see where I’m coming from? I was a social leper in school, sometimes treated as if I deserved contempt, and was not entitled to feelings. No, I am sure it wasn’t as bad as what what many gay kids go through. But considering the fact that I felt (at the tender age of 15) that death might not be so bad after all - I think I was having trouble. Do you think a kid like me is going to feel good, seeing that some of my favorite teachers (presumably the “cool” unjudgmental ones) are welcoming only gay kids to talk over their troubles, while I am stuck with fusty, oblivious Mrs. Zimmerman, the school counselor? How do you see this as “leveling the playing field”? Why should straight social lepers (like me) get the short end of the stick? How does this “even out” anything?

156

Oh, come on - No “cool teacher” is going to not talk to a kid that comes to them with problems just because they’re not gay.

Esprix

157

No you are right, but the “zones” might make a kid feel that way. There are times in the throes of depression (when you need help the most) that even the most logical assumption such as the one you made is not there. It might appear to a depressed kid that the teacher will not talk to him because he does not fit the criteria of the “zone”.

158

It also might be useful to research the history of why these zones came to be. Perhaps there was a specific problem with gay and lesbian harassment on campus, and this was the solution to address the problem? I’m sure if there were racial problems, similar such safe zones would exist.

Esprix

159

:rolleyes:

OK, once again, this kid’s rights were not violated in any way! The school told him he couldn’t wear a t-shirt. Pretty harsh on their part. To hear some people tell it, the principal is like the Chinese Army tank running over the brave freedom fighting student in the street.

The kid is allowed to express himself. He can use his voice and tell others of views. He can write stories or right-wing propaganda leaflets and distribute them across the street from the school. He can sing songs about sexuality(or lack thereof, really) at lunchtime in the playground.

What is the problem? The pink ‘gay pride’ symbol? If they take that down and keep the safe-zone, would that satisfy you? If they made more safe zones for every group that has had to live in fear of being stomped into the ground for being different?(I would like to see that) The safe zones are a good thing. It’s a shame that the whole school can’t be a safe zone, but it’s a step in the right direction.

160

Unfair and exclusionary. What the hell?!

Let’s look at this, shall we? The teachers, as far as I understand it, have undergone some sort of sensitivity training in order to handle this, meaning they’ve acquired some skills in dealing with teenagers’ problems. Do you really think that a “fat chick with bad skin” is going to be met with blank stares from such a faculty member if she goes in with problems about her self-esteem but is not necessarily bisexual or lesbian?

“Gee, Mr. Smith, a bunch of kids made me feel like utter shit in the parking lot this morning because of my looks and my weight. I really don’t know what to do.”

uncomfortable pause

“Um… well, I’m sorry, Heather, I was only trained for sensitivity on gay and lesbian issues. I’m afraid I can’t be of much help. See you this afternoon in class.”

The whole assumption here that these safe zones are only for troubled gay and lesbian students is completely faulty. If the teachers have actually been given sensitivity training, they should be able to handle pretty much any problem that comes at them from any student. The accent on gay and lesbian issues is nothing more than a positive message that this school, and these faculty members, promote tolerance for people who are perceived as different and are, or could be, harassed/bullied for it. Saying “I and others like me dont/didn’t get that kind of help, why should they?” is simply whiny, petty, and blind.

As for limiting this kind of thing to the actual guidance counselors in school - these counselors don’t deal with the students on a day-to-day basis. They aren’t as familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the pupils as the teachers who see them in their classes. I believe a teacher would be better able to help bolster a student’s self-esteem because s/he would know better how to focus on a student’s strengths and positive points, and help them feel better about themselves by helping them do what they like to do and do what makes them feel good about themselves.