Also, your idea that straight pride is opposite of gay pride is wrong. Straight pride tee shirts are designed to offend, they aren’t expressing a viewpoint.
That being said, really schools are too different from each other to have a blanket solution. My school has 4 councilors and 1600 students. Those councilors don’t know what is going on at all. Your not a bigot flesh, its just your philosophy is pie in the sky and has nothing to do with real problems.
Also, metal detectors are worthless, drug dogs are worthless, and poliece are a good idea. Poliece actually at the school that is, not calling them for every fight. Drug dogs funnily enough don’t actually find the drugs, and metal detectors are impratical.
To be sure! Both of the counselors at my cegep had “safe zone” stickers on their doors, and it’s not like people were avoiding THEM because they weren’t gay. To be even more specific, the same person who helped me organize the gay and lesbian group on campus was also organizing the FEED (Fighting to End Eating Disorders) group, and lots of other things on campus.
Why on earth would one assume that the presense of a “safe zone” sticker denies the plausibility of all other forms of acceptance?
Probably not but I do think the pink triangles give that impression. The pink triangles are posted specifically to let homosexual students know that there is a safe zone for them. If it was a safe zone for everyone they wouldn’t have used the pink triangle.
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Well that assumption can be changed by making a new safe zone symbol. Hell, maybe some homosexual kids avoid the pink triangle safe zones because they’re afraid of being outed. Maybe some heterosexual kids avoid the pink triangle safe zones because they’re afraid others might think they are gay.
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What the heck does sensitivity training mean anyhow? Beyond being a sympathetic ear I really don’t know.
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You see it that way. I think it would be quite easy to see it from another perspective.
Marc
Sorry, but I just couldn’t let this one go by. This is just utter BS. It is the JOB of “mommy, daddy, teachers, and [the]principal” to be in the business of the kids. Kids are legally protected because we assume that they are not fully capable at this age to make full and competent decisions at all times. (Children generally cannot sign contracts; they typically will not face the same penalties for committing crimes unless it is determined that they should be tried AS AN ADULT.) It is the job of parents and the schools to educate and civilize children, and to let them know what actions are generally accepted and which are not.
I may catch hell from some of the high school crowd here. I am not trying to say that ALL high schoolers are not bright and competent folks. Some are brilliant and posess more maturity at age 15 than some adults will ever achieve in a lifetime. Others are over-developed moron creeps who feel that might makes right, and would make school life an utter hell if they were allowed a free rein to establish the pecking order in school the way they would like to. My own school was a demi-hell because of the limited capacity with which the “ruling” crowd was allowed to handle things because teachers didn’t want to get involved at the name calling stage. I shudder to think what life would have been like if the school “left the kids to their own devices to figure out what is right and reasonable without assistance.” Someone else mentioned “Lord of the Flies”, which, granted, is a fictional account. But have you ever looked at what paragons of society teenage gangs are?
OK, back to the original subject. To re-cap the issue as I see it for those of you who are just jumping in here, let me point out a few things that I think have gotten a bit garbled. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong — as if I have to ask )
[ul]
[li]This is not a situation where a boy was not allowed to wear at “Straight Pride” shirt while other students were allowed “Gay Pride” shirts. There was no mention of anyone being allowed to wear “Gay Pride” shirts.[/li][li]A “safe zone” is not a physical area such as a room where students could retreat from gaybashers. Rather, it is a sign on a door indicating that the teacher therein would listen to problems that gay students had in a non-judgmental, confidential manner. I think it probably indicated that they had taken some sensitivity training on the issues involved, but I am not certain[/ul][/li]
OK, back to my opinions:
Some posters here feel that this means that the gay students are being given rights that the straight ones are being denied. I don’t see it that way. If a gay student were allowed to wear a “Gay Pride” shirt while a straight one wasn’t allowed to wear a “Straight Pride” one, then there would be a legitimate beef. To my knowledge, this hasn’t happened.
Was the principal heavy-handed in banning the shirt? Probably. As others have said, it just gave more attention to the cretin who wore it. Was he within his rights to do so? Absolutely. It was a disruption in school, and it is the job of any school administration to minimize this.
I think a lot of people are automatically assuming that the principal is a homophile because of his (her?) actions. I don’t think this is necessarily so. Again, I think that this action was done to prevent a deliberate provocation by one student in wearing the shirt. (Little did they know how much of a hullabaloo the banning would cause, however. Damn them for their lack of 20/20 foresight, right?)
A lot of people seem really cheesed off because they see the pink triangle “safe zones” as being exclusionary. Again, I think that this is probably not something that was intentionally done. My bet is that anyone who is a good enough person to take the training to qualify them for counseling gays would also be caring to other students with problems. The problem is, someone came up with an ORGANIZED program that offered training, and gave a recognizable logo for people who had done that training. If someone puts up the money to organize a training, they get the recognition for that. No one has come up with an organized program to recognize the generic problems that teens face because this is too broad a topic to cover. Politically, it would probably be better if the school just came up with a more generic “Safe Zone” logo, and made it clear that these teachers would listen non-judgementally no matter what your problem is — and possibly refer you to someone else if it was a matter they had no expertise in.
For those who say “That is what school counselors are for; that is what they are TRAINED in”: Well, you’re correct. However, at my high school, there were 2 counselors to serve over 1200 students. They were supposed to handle students with disciplinary problems, counsel students on getting into the college of their choice, administer certain tests, etc. How much time did they have to deal with my problems? One was an utter dipwad; the other was not much of a winner, and was married to a close friend of my Mom’s to boot. (Yeah, I’m going to tell HER my secrets.) Besides, they only knew me because of my achievement scores. Otherwise, I would never have even crossed their radar screens. I never had a relationship with them like I did with teachers who knew me from class.
This whole thing has become a tempest in a teapot. I really think they should just re-name the safe zones in a less exclusionary manner (and let any teachers who choose to opt out do so.)
If the school, is allowing “out” gays to state their sexual preference, which they are, then his rights are being violated.
That is exactly the problem and the reason his rights are being stepped on. Refer back to my post about support groups please.
First off the article says nothing about the teachers undergoing sensitivity training at all, in fact they set up this program outside as volunteers (good for them). No none of us think that the other students could not talk to these teachers, but as mentioned before, the throes of depression are not the most logical place in the world. You seem to have missed that point in some earlier posts. I will state again, that if these teachers has set up a support group then things would be different, but only if they were alos willing to set up the same kind of suport groups for other kids with problems. This quote is one of the first to actually make this point in a manner different than mine
The safe zones are exclusionary.
OK you are right, no “gay pride” shirts were mentioned in the article, but the gay students have their symbol all over the school, which amounts to the same thing IMHO.
Complete and utter bullshit, just as there were no gay pride shirts mentioned, the article mentioned no special training either. You are however right about the safe zone logo, the logo is the main reason I think the boy should be allowed to wear his shirt.
There is a post in this thread that a fat girl with bad skin complaining about gay kids getting support is whiny, this is fucked up. She deserves the same rights to support as they do. By that same logic (not my logic mind you) the gay kids are obviously big enough babies to get their own safe zones set up. I do not think thisis the case. I think the safe zones were a misguided attempt to cure a problem. As I have said before “not even a good stop-gap” IMHO. All kids get ridiculed, there is a point where it can be too much, but the schools main job is to protect the kids from physical abuse, not ridicule. I have said this before, and will say it again, the really real world where most of us live is a harsh place and always will be. This is human nature, kids should be protected from some amount of teasing but, if you protect them from all of it they will not be able to function when they have to function on their own.
You know, if indeed it was fully understood that anyone could go to a “safe zone”, and this is common knowledge, then fine. But MGibson brings up a good point, one that I was alluding to. The pink triangle implies something very specific to everyone. I think it’s quite possible that some kids will be afraid to go in, for fear of being outed. And other kids (like social leper fat chicks) might not go in, for fear of being thought of as gay (like they need even more harrassment on their plate.) These are legitimate concerns. Wouldn’t there be a way to give the impression that a “safe zone” is safe for everyone, including gays? I don’t think that just a pink triange implies this well enough. It implies (at least to me) that it is specifically for gays. Period.
And, it seems to me that some of you are backpedaling a bit. Before, you were saying that the counselors were there for other brands of social lepers, and these specific teachers were there for the gay kids. Now you’re saying that of course any kids can see the teachers. So which is it? And if seeing a teacher is obviously so much more preferable than a counselor, why do we have counselors to begin with?
Up until now, I had some doubt as to whether you were a bigot, or just doggedly arguing a stupid point out of stubbornness.
You’re a bigot.
Have you ever considered how many ways heterosexuals get to express their sexual preference? Let’s start with the wedding ring. On your level playing field, nobody should be wearing those, right?
How about this for a “levelling” proposal. Gays should be allowed to express their sexual orientation in the same way straights can. Holding hands, kissing in the hallways. Giggling and pointing at members of the same sex, laughing with their friends about their romantic fantasies. Making marriage plans. Getting married. All without fear of harassment, ridicule, and retaliations including beatings and death.
Until we are actually equal in these ways, then safe zone programs are a tiny little stopgap measure to try and make things a little bit more equal. And gay teenagers deserve them for the crap that society puts them through.
And as to the whole “exclusionary” argument, I’ve been doing a little research on Safe Zone programs. Apparently, they’re nationwide, and on both the collegiate and high school levels.
Here’s the text from the Ally Program at the University of Texas:
If that was the text on the sticker, would you be happy?
Oh, and here’s the FAQ on safe zone stickers from Randolp Macon College in Virginia.
It includes a section on what teachers should expect when they put up a Safe Zone sticker:
And apparently, there is some training involved:
And finally, here are a few statistics for you, drawn from this page.
Read the whole page. In fact, do more research in general. I’m sick of being mired in a discussion where the only facts are being garnered from a web page by the American Family Association. Did you know that their legal arm is the counsel representing Mr. Chambers’ family in the lawsuit being brought against Woodbury High School? Funny how the page didn’t mention that.
My point is, these are kids who are at disproportionate risk. They deserve extra help.
And yosemitebabe… read the safe zone literature I’ve provided. The teachers aren’t being counselors. They’re trying to make kids feel safe from discrimination, and refer them to appropriate community and counseling resources, which, I assume, includes the school counselors.
Well, it seems that folks just couldn’t help but prove my point for me. I only wandered into the board because a friend suggested that I check the thread out, but I don’t see how a low number in the counter under my name makes my points less valid. And I didn’t set out to tell anyone how to live their life, I objected to folks doing the same for others. Its pretty amazing that someone has the sheer hypocrisy to consider me bigoted while at the same time mocking my race and sexuality. Well done. Special treatment for any group is wrong, always, everywhere. It was wrong when whites got extra privileges, and its just as wrong when everybody else lobbies for their own special set of rules. I’ve got nothing against safe zones, my problem is that the zone was set up just for gay/lesbian kids. Why not devote the time to making the whole school a better place, instead of working group by group based on who is better at claiming victim status. I wasn’t trying to claim victim status for myself in my original post, I was just pointing out that I do in fact understand discrimination, and that the common ways of classifying who is or isn’t a member of a downtrodden group is pretty damn pathetic. Anybody that wants to call me a victim is going to get fed parts of their own face.
I’d much prefer that all discrimination be done away with, but the whiny lefties won’t allow that, they actually depend on it for their power base. Where would they be without hyphenated Americans demanding that they get some special privilege based on whatever label they choose to wear? Instead of a nice, simple, “All discrimination based on race, religion, sexuality, or other feature is forbidden” we’ve got a nasty patchwork as packs of victims bid against each other to be the subject of the bill of the week. The census forms had to have the race section expanded to keep track of it all, we now even track fractional minority group membership, all those halves and quarters are important to keep the special interest numbers up. Notice how its only the big minorities - if that doesn’t seem like too much of an oxymoron - that get the special treatment. When folks talk about “multi-lingual”, they really mean in Spanish, too. “Multi-cultural” probably means Asians get included. So what about folks that only speak Latvian, or Urdu, or Vietnamese, don’t they get some break? Or, here’s a really radical idea, why don’t we treat everybody exactly the same?
Of course the ‘straight pride’ shirt was designed to offend. But anyone who thinks that a similar ‘gay pride’ shirt doesn’t have a pretty substantial in-your-face element is just lying to themselves. Allow both, or neither. Don’t decide that being offended by a gay pride shirt is just an artifact of ignorance and hate, while being offended by a straight pride shirt is an admirable exercise in tolerance. Pick one or the other and lets get on with our lives.
-reemul
who did, in fact, go to Mauldin High. Is Mr. Forrester still blowing up the lab when administrators annoy him?
Fuck you read what I have posted, I think gays should be able to be “out”. You stupid, blind, ignorant fuck. If you can’t do anything more than try to twist my words then fuck off. You are obviuosly bigotted against anyone who does not agree with you. Some of the wording you mentioned is good yes, and I am glad there is training for the program you brought up. It is however not necessarily the same program we are discussing. You are about a dumbass if you can’t see how these zones would makeother students feel excluded. I like you stats, very nice. What about the jocks/nerds thing that has been going on for decades as well? I am saying that gays should have the same rights that I have. You apparently just can’t get over yourself long enough to see this, so take your crybaby attitude and your cut up responses and shove them up your ass. kida that are fat, punks, have bad skin, too tall, too short, a little slow, black, white (in some schools), brown, etc. etc. all deserve and have been picked on more then enough to have the same kind of protection. Life sucks get a fucking hemlmet, seems to be your attitude. Gay is the cool thing to be tolerant about right now, and by doing so the way you are you leave many others out in the cold you arrogant fuck.
Oh and BTW I have yet to see you point out anything about me that is vile. You can’t even back up your own insults, bitch.
Cenorship is wrong in any case you ignorant fuck, what if I am offended by something you believe, do I have to keep my mouth shut and not say anything at all? Get your head out of your ass and smell the fucking coffee. The only reason you think the kid should be censored is because you don’t agree with him…hypocrite.
Ah, fleshy. Nice to see your vitriol finally approaching the same level as your idiocy.
If you have specific points that you would like me to address, please state them in some sort of organized fashion. If I am cutting and pasting your posts, it’s in an attempt to figure out what your point is, and address it. It’s pretty tough to separate your salient points from your meaningless drivel, you know.
I’m assuming that this is one of your points, however:
They don’t. You have the right to walk down the street holding hands with your girlfriend without the fear of getting the crap beaten out of you for doing just that.
You have the right to get married. You have the right to visit your loved one in intensive care, and to take responsibility for vital decisions as to her health care.
You have the right to go through the day without hearing a single disparaging remark about your sexuality, most days.
Until the playing field is indeed level, then gay kids deserve to have resources available to them that straight kids don’t.
And now… a personal anecdote.
I went to high school in rural Rhode Island, back when there was such a thing. In my junior year, I approached my science teacher, Mrs. B., for advice about my sexuality.
Please keep in mind that I’d been aware of my attraction for guys since I was thirteen. That’s four years of hiding who I was from my family and friends. Four years of feeling that what I felt was wrong, and that if they knew, the people who loved me wouldn’t love me anymore. Four years of hurting with every “fag”, “queer”, “cocksucker” comment I heard, even though they weren’t directed at me. Though some were.
After all that, I knew I needed help. I had been in Mrs. B’s class for most of the year, and she was smart, and funny, and seemed like she might know some way to help. So I told her that I was gay, and asked if she knew what to do.
She took me to a priest.
The priest made vague, embarrassed noises, told me it was a sin to lie with other men, and said god loved me anyway.
It didn’t help much.
Maybe if there had been a safe zone at my school, I would have been able to seek help sooner. Maybe I would have gotten referred to a counselor, or a support group. Maybe the teacher would have had some idea of the resources available to me, or maybe she would have been better prepared to have a student approach her on this subject.
And maybe I wouldn’t have made that suicide attempt later that year.
You see, flesh, this isn’t a political debate for me. It’s a debate about the kids who I know are out there in need of a sympathetic ear, so they can work out their problems. It’s about teachers who want to help, but don’t know how.
And it’s about my frustration with your inability to see that the path to equality means looking out for those who are being victimized.
YOu are truly a work. By your posts, you obviously only care about gay rights, as I have stated many other groups of kids many times that need the same support that gay kids do. At times maybe even more as they are not on the cool minority list right now. You are bigotted beyond belief. Gay kids need support, I have said that many times, you have chosen to ignore that. I have listed other groups that you have also chosen to ignore and I cannot debate someone who is not even looking at what I am saying but is, only taking things out of context, the same things over and over again. You have proven your ability to see only your side of the coin and deny all others exist. I have stated repeatedly, as have others, the reason these zones are a bad idea. I even suggested a support group be formed. You also ignored that. So by your own obvious ignorance of facts that have been stated, mind you ignorance by choice at this point, you have proven yourself a facist in your own right. I advocate equal rights, you advocate extra rights. Does your tiny little mind see the difference yet?
Not only does your argument fail to hold water here, but you show on your webpage that you are a special type of reactionary moron who goes off on groups that don’t fall in line with your narrow views.
You seem to live in a highly polarized land where there are evil liberals trying to take your guns, terrorist animal rights groups, and now oppressive gay people who are demanding special rights.
You are the one who needs to extract his head from his ass.
If you went to work wearing inappropriate clothing, some bosses would send you home, if they didn’t also either reprimand or dismiss you. Your freedoms are not unlimited and can be squelched by authorities.
Open your eyes, and suck it up. Your rights and freedoms cease to be complete when they infringe on someone else.
I have posted statistics that indicate that gay kids are a particularly high risk group, in need of special counseling in order to feel safe in their educational environment. Post similar statistics, or a solution that improves upon the safe zone program.
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What, exactly, is cool about being insulted daily? Living in fear of revealing yourself to friends, family, and loved ones? Being at excessive risk of getting the crap beaten out of you , just for being who you are?
The problems inherent in being a gay teenager are finally coming to light, and responsible teachers and caring community members are doing what they feel is right to help these kids in need.
You have also said that the safe zones are an inappropriate means of creating the support that gay kids need. You have suggested support groups. The safe zones’ role is to create an environment free from persecution, and to enable teachers to refer students in trouble to resources like support groups. Support groups are not enough. We need to gradually expand the areas in which gay students feel like they won’t get harassed, ridiculed or retaliated against for simply being gay.
And, since I’m quoting your entire moronic post here, how is this out of context?
And you have changed your opinions how, exactly?
What do you propose? How do you want to start making kids feel like they won’t be persecuted? It happens, in schools with police, with drug dogs, with policies against it. Gay kids take a disproportionate amount of harassment. What is wrong with a classroom where a kid making a homophobic remark is a rare occurrence? What is wrong with a teacher who knows where to get help for a kid in trouble?
Which, as far as I can tell from your semi-incoherent rantiongs, is that other kids have problems too. My response to that was the set of statistics that showed that gay kids are being persecuted disproportionately to the rest of the student body. My premise is that offering additional help to a target group with a quantifiable set of problems is an effective way of helping that group. The safe zones offer kids the kind of help they need, where they need it most.
Addressed above. Support groups alone are not enough.
What facts? Gimme numbers, fleshboy. Prove to me that gay kids are, in fact, in just as much and not more trouble than straight kids. Prove to me that they don’t commit suicide more often, don’t get beaten up more often, don’t become homeless more often, don’t get insulted more often than straight kids, and I will listen to you. All you’ve offered is you puerile opinion, based on admitted right-wing propaganda.
So, you think I should be able to marry the person I love? You think I should be able to make crucial medical decisions for my life partner? You think I should enjoy the same sense of security at work that you do?
In what way is the ability to sit in a classroom without fear of being ridiculed a special right?
You’re angry. That’s a good thing. That means you are feeling threatened. You might start to listen soon. It’s unlikely, but there is a chance.
You talk of a level playing field as if it already exists. It doesn’t. We are trying to get there.
Someday, there will be equal rights for gays and straights. What you see here is people working toward that end. It takes years of work to eliminate a deeply-ingrained cultural bias, and the way to get there is for people who have overcome that bias to let others know how to do the same.
The safe zones are helping children get to where they can live without fear. I agree that all children should live like that, but until that end is achieved, it’s going to take a lot of small steps by brave people who are willing to reach out and give their support in small ways.
Equality cannot be legislated, it cannot be enacted wholesale. People volunteering to show that they care is the basis of this program, and the hope for progress toward the goal of eventual equality. No-one can just say, “Okay, now, everybody’s equal.” But with years of effort and caring, equality can be achieved.
I agree that there are other groups out there in need of support. Go support them. Start a program, like the safe zones, or find another way of doing so.
I personally can’t solve all the world’s problems at once. I have to pick my battles. You can’t spend all your time fighting injustice, and so people institute programs to address specific problems they feel they can help with.
And opposing such efforts on the part of caring individuals is unconscionable.
And, hey. Thanks for the fascist comment. Funny stuff.
Please, my website is satire, I am a conservative yes, but not an ultra conservative. To top it off the point of my website is much like the point of the pit, to piss people off, and hopefully to make them think and post. I however haveonly been running it a short bit of time. I hope soon to have a board like this where people can debate issues. If you don’t think that my website is you speed then don’t visit it. I had hoped that the people here that claimed to be intelligent would be able to see my website for what it is, you obviously judge people very easily and have just done to me what you accuse me of doing, being prejudice. I have stated many times, ad nauseim at this point. That the only reason I am against these zones is that they exclude people, not because they help gays. How does this make me have a narrow mindset?
Because you ignore the information that is given to you, and continue to spout your fear and propaganda.
If there is a safe zone, to assume that it is ONLY for gay kids is fallacious. As the zone is showing that a teacher is able to handle the issue, can you not realize that would extend to kids who are being harassed for their ethnicity or faith? The zealotry you sling, casting aspersions on gays, claiming they are getting special rights is specious at best, and shows your homophobia.
There are not equal rights for gay people, nor are there really equal rights for women, or minorities. So, sit on your luxurious throne of heterosexual priviledge and tell all of the minority members how good we have it. From you it just comes off as protecting your power.
Not going to bother to quote, but yes I do believe you should have all those rights. There are not stats for the kids I am refering to as they are not listed as minorities and not given case studies and such. I am sorry if I based my arguments in this thread on the article that it was based on, silly me. I have stated even that if the “safe zones” were accessible to all students then I would even think they were a decent stop-gap.
Believe it or not I think you and I are even close to on the same page, just using different language to describe it. I am angry yes, but not at you, I am angry at some of the things you have said that made you appear not to be listening, and even when I described in detail other options and listed other groups you ignored them. I have never denied that gay kids need help, not in the least, I have said quite the opposite.
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