I have said that the presence of the pink triangle shows the zones only to be for gay kids, and it has been agreed with. I have no problem with these zones, if all are made to feel welcome in them. As long as the gay pride symbol is displayed on them, then all are not made to feel welcome. Your reaction was typical knee-jerk style, you didn’t read what I had said, you only saw that I was a consevative and assumed that I hate gays and don’t want anything good for them. On the contraty, I want them to have all the rights I have.
It is not considered acceptable in school or our culture to hurl slurs based on ethnicity or gender. It IS considered acceptable to call people “faggot,” “homo,” “fag,” “queer,” and a host of other slurs. Gay people are the last available public target that it is considered socially acceptable to attack.
A feminine straight boy who gets called these things often enough can end up feeling very confused about his sexuality, and these safe zones give an opportunity to talk with someone about it. And before you say that what I am suggesting does not happen often, think.
I’ve known of quite a few straight boys who have been harassed because they weren’t as macho as their peers and needed someone to talk to. This gives them that chance.
Forgive me my typos oh residents of the pit.
This is funny coming from you. You seem to take a single point that is made and focus on that out of context, ignoring the rest of what was said. Knee-jerk? Um. Your posts are just that. Knee-jerk responses which criticize because they attack compulsory heterosexuality and the current power structure based on hegemonic sexuality.
No it doesn’t even give these boys the chance, if they really aren’t gay and don’t want to be indentified that way then they will likely be afraid to go to these zones for fear of other students seeing them. If the safe zones did not display the pink triangle, then it would even take the heat off of a closet case going to see someone about his/her problems. I hope you are actually starting to see where I am coming from. The kids you mentioned need help as well. I got accused of being gay a few times in high school, as I didn’t date (I was one of 4 or 5 punks in school). I would not have gone to a safe zone like these as they appear (not the word used here) to be for gays only. This is an argument about appeances, not the need for something to be done, we both agree on that.
No, we don’t agree.
There does need to be something done. And that you wouldn’t have gone shows your issues.
I have no problem with gays having protection under the law, where do you get the idea that my sexuality is threatened? I am saying these zones are presented in a light that makes anyone besides an out gay student feel like they cannot go to them. I have never once denied the need for measures to be in place to stop ridicule, I have said that it cannot ever be stopped all the way. We need to insure that the gay kids take no more teasing than anyone else. I have even stated a need for better security at schools to make sure that physical violence doesn’t occur. Where have I said anything out of fear or stated propoganda? I have said I would like to see support groups and/or safe zones that all kids could access. Is it because I want to include everyone that needs help, with no exclusions that I am a fearful bigot?
It shows issues I had in high school thank you, which is what we are discussing, is it not. Kids in high school are not known for their rationality. Again you did not address having zones that do not display a preference.
Just get rid of the damned pink triangle and make informed counseling available for ANY student with ANY problem/concern, and stop all the arguments for or against gay/hetero. This entire “rope” has gotten out of hand and is sounding like a broke record.
So the problem is that the kids feel bad off, just not bad enough to associate with gays? Really even if the kids did see a kid go in there they would probably think that its in some way school related.
Hey, Hastur. tag
The entire freaking school is intended as an equal opportunity safe zone. It doens’t work for some kids, as evidenced by the statistics I quoted above. Thus, extra effort needs to be expended to make sure the kids at risk feel safe in seeking the help they need.
Read that again, fleshboy.
Try and comprehend. If that sort of targeting doesn’t work, why does target marketing exist? It’s about getting the right help to the right kids.
Mr. Visible, sorry, I waded through 4 pages to find your cite on what the safe zones offer. I missed it, I guess. It’s hard to find amongst the ranting and raving you and Mr. Flesh are throwing at each other. (And, I have to add, I skimmed through this last half of page 4, because it seemed to be more of the same. If there was some pertinent bit of information there as well, I have likely missed it.)
Like I’ll say again, I know that gay kids go through a lot of pain. And I certainly don’t want to be in the way of helping them. But I don’t get it - why only a pink triangle?
I have heard different stories about why the teachers are better equipped to talk to these gay kids. One was that the counselors are not really trained in the specific problems and needs of gay kids, and that these teachers are. And I ask - why not? If the teachers get this special training, or sensitivity, why not the counselors too? And then I hear that teachers are more day-to-day and “one-on-one” than counselors, and that’s why they’d be better to talk to. And I ask - well, what about the other troubled kids? If talking to a teacher is preferable to talking to a counselor, why are there counselors at all? And why can’t all kids be specifically invited? (By "special invitation - which is exactly what the pink triangle is - a specific symbol for a specific group of people.) And now I am told that seeing the teachers is often just a preliminary step for the gay kids - that they may then be directed to, among other things, the counselors. What? You mean these same counselors that (as previously claimed) are not specifically and specially equipped to deal with gay kids? And if gay kids can benefit from this sort of one-on-one thing in the “safe zones”, prior to being sent somewhere else (like a counselor) why not the other troubled kids too?
Look, I don’t have a problem with gay kids getting help, I know that gay kids need all they can get. But so did I at that age, and I wasn’t gay. But I suspect that I can see a perspective that perhaps you can’t. I was convinced I was a bottom-feeder at school - “not worthy”, and all. Had I seen that the symbol for “safe zones” was only a pink triangle, I probably would have stayed away. For many reasons, like I have mentioned before. But I also might have thought, “Well, my problems and situation must not be as important and crucial - so I don’t want to take up the teacher’s time. They have to reserve their time for the gay kids. So I won’t trouble them.” I dunno. Never underestimate the screwed-up way kids are going to interpret things. Especially kids who are told each day that they are worthless. I probably would have needed to know for sure that non-gay kids were welcome, in order to feel comfortable going to a safe zone. Otherwise, I might have felt like I was “butting in”. And frankly, having a pink triangle as the only symbol in a “safe zone” is not going to hack it.
You said in an earlier post
Gosh, this sounds like me exactly during high school. I’ll bet this sounds like a lot of troubled kids. I feel like I’m trying to stick up for all troubled kids here. Pain is pain. Feelings of suicide are feelings of suicide. If these “safe zones” will help gay kids, I want that same help made readily and obviouslyavaible for all kids.
Where am I going wrong here?
Why are you going wrong, Yosemitebabe? Read my last few posts.
These kids, statistically, are at risk for specific problems, and a simple emblem showing that they can be accepted posted in a few windows at school is not too much to ask. I’m sorry your high school experience sucked. It shouldn’t have, and you should work to make sure your experience benefits others, like these teachers are trying to do. But don’t try and stop other people from helping the kids they choose to reach out to.
You’re right, kids interpret things in a screwed-up way. Unless someone says, “Here, this is help for kids with problems like yours, specifically”, then they’re unlikely to feel they deserve it, after being denigrated for a lifetime. Which is why the pink triangles have to be there.
The school counselors are there to help with all student problems. Did you take advantage of them? I know I didn’t. Why? Because it didn’t seem like my problems were the sort that they were there to handle.
Don’t like the pink triangle? Come up with your own symbol, and a way to make kids like you were feel safe. Post those too, and I’m sure the teachers will get behind that as well. But until you can show me that gay youths are not specifically at more risk of derision and abuse than other members of the student body, I will continue to advocate services that cater to their needs as a group.
You, MrVisible, can’t see the forest for the trees, first off the sources you cite for your stats are as biased as the a.f.a. I think Mr. Twain said it best “There are, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics”. I pointed out why there are no stats on the groups of kids I have mentioned, you again chose to ignore that. There is no “proof” because these kids are not listed as a minority.
I want you to explain what is wrong with safe zones for all students, and why it is not as good as making some students feel excluded, if you can. (hint: there is no good answer for this one)
Explanation, when I said “cool minority” I meant in the political sense. Right now gays are the minority of choice for politicians to attack/defend. This will change soon and we will see another group getting extra special attention while the current cool group still has the same problems they did before, just out of the public’s eyes. I don’t think this is right at all, but it is the way it is.
As for you not taking advantage of the couselors, that only shows you had issues as well. I do not want safe zones for every little clique I belonged to, or was shoehorned into, I want them for everyone, how is this wrong?
In theory, I have nothing against the counselors. That IS their job, after all. But, from the practical standpoint, can they adequately serve the whole school? We had 2 counselors for 1200 students in my school. To see them, you would have to get permission to set up an appointment to leave a class and meet with one of them. To get permission, you would have to tell the teacher why you had a problem you wanted to see a counselor about. Great system for confidentiality, huh?
The counselors should be trained to deal with these problems. However, students shouldn’t be faced with the prospect of having only 2 people that they probably don’t know very well to be the only ones willing to listen to them.
It’s obvious the pink triangle thing is becoming a divisive issue. They’d be better off printing a generic “safe zone” sign to post, and making it clear they were open to all comers.
Quit twisting my words, these kids feel bad. If they got pegged as gay and were not it, would only lead to more ridicule for them. What in the world is wrong with advocating help for all groups that need it? Tell me, I dare you. You are obviously bigotted against anything non-gay, at least as much as you accuse me of being bigotted against. What about the closet cases that are afraid to be out, these zones are not for them either. They need help. You should look at what I am saying instead of picking one thing and trying to harp on it, you look like fool doing that.
I am not saying to removed the pink triangle, I’m saying that having only the pink triange sends a specific message.
Please copy and paste any quote by me where I implied that I wanted these teachers to stop helping gay kids.
Once again, I never asked for the pink triangles to be removed, per-se. I am asking that these “safe zones” make sure they include other kids, including gay kids. I am all for the gay kids knowing that they are very, very welcome. And while an exclusive pink triangle does this, it simultaniously sends a message to all the other social leper kids out there as well.
Please copy and paste where I said that I “didn’t like” the pink triangle. I may have said I didn’t like the pink triangle being the only symbol on these safe zones - but I do not dislike the pink triangle.
And I also have to say, why does there have to be “kids like you”? Is this like “we’ll take care of our own, you take care of your own” kind of thing? Sorry, I don’t want to be like that. I want to help all kids.
Oh, did I miss something? Is there some Fat & Ugly Kid Association that will lobby to these teachers? I know that the gay/lesbian movement has some clout (and more power to them) but it’s not quite so easy for fat ugly people (and other social lepers) to get the same kind of attention for their specific needs. Or, do you want me to wave my magic wand, so all the teachers will start safe zones for fat ugly kids? Is that it?
I am certainly not trying to negate their needs. But please. As someone who knew what it felt like to want to die as a teenager, please don’t play the “my pain is worse than your pain” card. (Which, forgive me, seems like you are trying to do in a way.) There are A LOT of kids, with a LOT of problems. A lot of pain. A lot of thoughts of suicide. I want the best for ALL of them. And it seems to me like you want to focus on one group - “your” group. Which is fine. I don’t want to take anything away from your group. I just want the other groups included as well.
Wow. So much vitriol, so little time.
I gotta go with the ones who say get rid of the pink triangle. I am bisexual, having finally come to terms with it after a fifteen-year struggle with what this means. I will tell you one thing: if I were born fifteen years later, and dealing with all of this now, I would NEVER seek out a room with even a small pink triangle because of what it means. If you are struggling with accepting your sexuality, up to and including fearing for your life because of it, why the hell would you advertise it in this way? That doesn’t make a fucking bit of sense. It’s almost like painting a target on your back. It seems to me that this may defeat the (noble) purpose behind the whole thing.
Better to make it an all-inclusive safe zone. Or better yet, require it from all your staff, making every area a safe zone.
I’ll say it one more time. The fairest thing is to get rid of the pink triangle logo; and would like to add:
-Don’t put up a straight edge symbol,
-Ugly student symbol,
-Fat student symbol,
-Bi-sexual symbol,
-Rainbow symbol,
-Picked-on-kid symbol,
-or any of the other stupid shit that adults dream up to feel like they’re really helping.
Get over the fact that kids that fall in each of the above (yes, even straight, hetero, attractive, brainy, popular, etc. kids) categories are going to catch hell at some time or other and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it.
The best you can hope for is that school staff extracts head from rectum and stops “labeling” of students that need help with their situation, whatever it might be.
(I still thing gays are weird, but what the hell.)
Well, we thin**k[b/] you are quite weird, so I guess that makes things even.