He's Not Ready For A Child, And I'm Sad.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
181

So maybe I can’t work on the family part right now, but I can work on the community part. The reality is I’m feeling isolated because of the choices I have made out of fear and mistrust. Those are old paradigms that no longer serve me. There are people around me that care about me, and it’s time for me to crawl out of my head and back into the world.

What you and others have pointed out in this thread is absolutely right. This is life now. I’m done waiting around passively for things to change. I think connecting with other people needs to be a priority in my life moving forward. I’m not saying it can take the place of bringing a child into the family, but it’s what I already have right in front of me that matters the most.

And my career choice in macro social work does reflect my true values. I have a lot to celebrate right now. Leaving aside how incredibly excited I am about the advanced year internship I landed (seriously it’s going to rock), I’m about to finish my education this Spring, a process I started nine years ago. I had no idea when I started what macro social work was, much less that I would wind up becoming very interested in organizational policy and research. But somehow I ended up here and it seems to be exactly what I need right now – community. So I think ultimately the profession I chose is going to organically lead to becoming more involved with the world around me.

So yeah, life may be a little stupid, but it’s also kind of beautiful, too. And ultimately I will be better off focusing on the beautiful, not stupid, parts.

182

I am much impressed by your thoughtfulness in your posts. I am also extremely awed at how well adjusted and life-loving you are, having had such trauma in your past.

It’s easy to feel isolated. It’s simple to take a step toward fixing that, it may not be so easy to take that first step. Be bold! Step out and embrace your life as it is right now.

Peace

183

Jeezo, Pete. You’re really getting the gears in this thread Olives.

I’m not going to counter anything anyone has said, 'cus really everyone is entitled to their opinion. With that in mind, 5 years doesn’t seem like much to me at all - you’ll be 32 - big whoop.

I’m 37 and having baby number 1.

Downsides - increased risk of certain things, I’ll be in my mid 50s when Junior is finishing high school, I’m sure my body won’t snap back the way a younger woman’s would.

Upsides - I have an established career which I can take an entire year off from with no concerns whatsoever, hubby and I have an income adequate that not only can we afford diapers and formula (if needed) for Junior, we can actually afford for me to get a small push present without making us homeless (yes, yes, I’m horribly selfish, going to be a bad mother, how dare I want a small ‘sorry your body is wrecked and you’re sitting on a frozen maxi-pad for days’ gift).

Really, I think there are pros and cons for both approaches (kids earlier vs. kids later) and I don’t think your hubby wanting to wait until he’s actually done school and has a job is an unreasonable request.

184

I agree with you that the five years isn’t an issue in terms of her age and there’s no One Right Time to have kids, but it gives me pause nonetheless because the original plan was 2-4 years. I’m right behind him with not moving things up, given what the next few years will be like; moving things back, especially in view of the OP’s sense of urgency on the matter, seems a bit much.

185

If I may throw in an observation that will probably get me attacked, but that I feel is darned true nevertheless…

In the same way that women have fantasies about how courtship, love, and marriage will go–and these fantasies often don’t have much to do with the way it actually goes–we have fantasies about a man’s drive and desire and grasp on the whole “having kids” thing. While there are definitely men who are all about having kids, there are lots of other great men who will make great dads who are okay with the concept as long as it’s vaguely defined, but who panic when the whole thing is planned and talked about and focused on too much.

(A lot of, not all) women LIKE to think about getting pregnant… about being pregnant… about having a special birthing experience… and about having children join the family. (A lot of, not all) men–especially ones who haven’t been through the process before–like the idea in general but get queasy about the specifics.

It’s just a hard fact of life that while your husband may be a great guy, responsible, reliable, and who loves you a lot… he won’t be able to handle the pressure of consciously trying to conceive, or of budgeting for the birth and infancy, or of long drawn-out discussions about contingency plans before the fact. And once you’re pregnant, whoa nelly… there’s just a whole range of in-depth discussion that you don’t want to have with your husband. Save it for girlfriends.

I am 8 weeks pregnant with our first child right now. My husband and I met on eHarmony and he grilled me, on our first date, about how I thought a couple should handle money, what breakfast cereal belonged to whom, and when and how badly I wanted kids. He was totally unafraid. Ever since we became an established couple he has talked happily about the future children, and crooned about what a good mother I’d be (and melted with joy when I talked about what a good father he’d be). The dude is prime material.

But when I told him what day I was ovulating? Pressure = performance anxiety = unhappiness. When I asked him if he’d still be attracted to me after he’d seen me give birth? Pressure = fear and queasiness about biological processes = unhappiness. When I first got pregnant, and bloated up in that very special first trimester way and couldn’t button my pants at 4 weeks and happily showed him? A moment of complete horror and panic about what would happen to my body and whether he’d be able to handle it.

I’ve found it’s way better to let him do his own “what to expect when your wife’s expanding” research, to let him notice things, and to let him as his own questions. Since I stopped pointing things out, he’s gotten excited and interested and far more supportive. He just needed me to back off.

If I may say… and once again, WATCH ME GET FLAMED, but I think it’s true anyway… pregnancy and childbirth reveal a very real and tangible gender divide. I love and adore men and still prefer their company, and my husband is the love of my life and a great, solid, reliable guy. But they have to approach the whole having-kids thing in a much quieter, more relaxed way than women do.

I think you worked your husband over too hard. Someone earlier in this thread predicted that he’d get into a well-maybe-it’s-time mood sooner than five years from now. If he does, I recommend that you jump on it, if it’s still what you want, but don’t treat it like a nuclear arms treaty.

And DON’T tell him what day you ovulate.

186

Much as I’m certain you’re really wanting motherhood, I can’t shake the feeling that you’re rushing to this. Perhaps because you’re maybe a little afraid of that Phd. Your masters seems to have been a struggle, emotionally. I know you’ve long ago told everyone around you, but especially hubby, the plan is a Phd, yada, yada. He, no doubt, bought into the idea. Since a Phd usually translates into sound income, he had good cause to believe the debts you were both accruing, while studying, would not present too much of a burden for the family.

Now you want to shift gears to SAHM, no income, no Phd, NOW! He’s not even finished schooling and you want to stop earning and bring another mouth to feed into his world, while making all your debts his problem. Guess he’ll just have to take the first job he’s offered and hope for the best. Seems like an ambush, and not like you, in my opinion.

I think you want a reason not to pursue the Phd. Considering the difficulty you faced with your masters, I think that’s not unfounded. But you can decide not to pursue the Phd just because you don’t think the time is right, you’re not feeling it, you need a break from school, etc. It’s almost seems like it’s the only way to save face.Having a baby will justifiably keep, one and all, from expecting you to pursue the Phd, right now and perhaps, ever. Again I don’t doubt the sincerity of your desire to be a mother, but the timing and sudden push strike me as otherwise motivated.

Your hubby and you have a great relationship, I believe, and I’m certain you’ll work through this either way, but my advice would be to look hard at what other things could be driving this sudden need. I’m just saying, my opinion, no offense intended.

187

For what it’s worth, while I don’t necessarily think that all men need special handling, I do think that the differences between men and women are vastly understated now, and I fee that you’re right - when children are in the mix, especially during pregnancy and beyond, men and women handle it differently. I think a lot of it has to do with simply not being able to experience pregnancy and the birth first hand.

With my husband, it was hard for him to understand my feeling of inevitability, especially after our first, when my labor lasted for days and ended with a horrible complication that fucked me up for months afterward. He couldn’t understand how, even though the same thing could happen with #2, I was able to reconcile myself to the fact that I would do my part, the baby would do its part and what would happen would happen and I’d get through it one way or the other. I was afraid, but I didn’t have a choice but to deal with it.

Also, and this has gotten me flamed before - there are inherent biological differences between men and women that make them react differently toward a child. Yes, both men and women can be nurturing. And yes, many (if not most) women react the same way to a baby they adopted as they would to a baby they carried to term. But… I don’t think you can get away from the fact that a baby causes more physical change in a woman than it does a man, whether the woman is breastfeeding, carried the child, etc., and those hormones make it easier for a woman to nurture a child than it would be for a man. In other words, babies and their mothers have a stronger symbiotic relationship to each other than men and babies. It bothers me that it’s somehow bad to say that. And yes, having a baby changes men almost as much, as well as the dynamics of a marriage, but not the same way.

Keep in mind, I’m not saying it’s impossible for a man to nurture a child. But, they tend to do it differently. It’s easy to argue that a woman’s ability to nurture a child vs. a man’s is socially conditioned, and in part that’s true, but there is a fundamental physical difference between men and women that has been largely ignored recently (part of it seems due to political correctness), and it’s there for a reason. That doesn’t make women less effective executives or men less effective stay-at-home parents, but it does mean that they approach the matter differently. And being different is ok.

188

Bolding mine.

You would think so, right? But no. Academia is mostly a scam. It’s for suckers. That’s probably especially true in the humanities and social sciences (no offense to you lucky, happy academics out there. But let’s get real… you’re a very fortunate minority.) Having one academic in the household is bad enough, but two? Suicide.

Right now I’m working on a professional Masters degree at Penn in the field of macro social work. ‘‘Macro’’ work covers everything from policy research to community organizing (I’m most interested in the policy research bit.) This is a terminal degree, a career degree, a degree designed to make me employable. According to graduate statistics from my school, the average starting salary is about $7k more than the lifetime national average for social workers. This degree was a sound investment. Almost nobody takes it to the Ph.D. level.

I just spent the last year or so consistently downplaying the value of the degree I’m earning and mooning over some other degree that would arguably be a much worse investment. My husband wasn’t shocked or put off by my decision to not go for it, he was relieved. Now we won’t be stuck here for another six years while I pursue some ego-driven luxury degree that won’t leave me any better off than the extremely expensive Masters degree I’m already getting.

Coming to terms with that reality has been a process, one that culminated at the beginning of the summer. That’s where that ‘‘push’’ came from. Of course I’m not going to emphasize having a baby when I may be in school another 6 years, but once that decision is finally made, once I realize that my education will be complete in just one year, once I realize the 9 years I have spent in school or working toward school is about to pay off, of course that means I can focus more on having a kid. Just because I didn’t talk about it all the time during the last three years doesn’t mean it wasn’t an important goal, it was just less of a priority because school was in the way.

Now school will no longer be in the way. Or so I thought. Because apparently me completing my education isn’t sufficient for him to feel secure in parenthood. School is still in the way.

As far as being a SAHM for a year or two, that’s been on our radar for a while because it was pretty much a requirement for adopting a special needs child as we originally planned to do. He expressed relief that I was willing to do this, not dismay. And for those that think this whole ‘‘I want to have a baby thing’’ was triggered by visiting my Mom in Michigan, here is a thread I started in May, over a month before Michigan and being offered someone else’s kid. You will see the expense of adoption was a major hurdle we were struggling to overcome. You will notice I said ‘‘we’re both really anxious to have kids.’’ I wasn’t kidding. He wanted this too.

I think Sattua has a good point about the reality vs. the vague concept of fatherhood. Either way, it’s pretty much fucked up beyond salvaging at this point, at least for the short-term. I just have to accept what happened and move on.

I feel like two different people right now. The ‘‘I can accept this and we can have a good life together’’ person and the ‘‘holy shit I am so angry and hurt I will never get past this’’ person. I’m trying to keep my crazy feelings to myself because they aren’t very constructive, and emphasize the normal, sane ones, more. Hopefully with time the angry me will go away. If I have to address it in counseling, I will, but for right now I’m just assuming this is something that will take time.

One interesting thing that’s come out of all this is that the experience has been very instructional on the issue of the inevitability and impermanence of suffering (A Zen thing.) Good spiritual discipline.

189

Yeah, count me in as someone who will back up that a Ph.D. does not necessarily translate into more secure income. I’m in a technical field, even, and what I am seeing at my company is that a) Ph.D.'s are indeed hired at a slightly higher salary level, but b) the missed income from 5-6 years while you were doing the Ph.D. takes a while to work out, and c) by that time the initial salary divide is trumped by innate skill differences. I should think it’s even more pronounced for a humanities/social science degree. There is no reason to get a Ph.D. unless it’s something you personally really want to do. (As was the case with me, and I loved it, and I am really glad I did it, but that doesn’t apply for, well, most people.)

Also, Sattua, everything you said. Mr. hunter approached fatherhood with a great great deal of trepidation and fear (when I told him we had managed to conceive, and even though this was a much wanted and planned-for baby, he said he hoped I didn’t mind that he was mostly afraid), but now watching him with the Little One is an absolute joy.

(And I never told my husband when I was ovulating, or even bothered to figure it out too accurately… although he said it was pretty easy to tell by the way I jumped on him. My hormones seem to be super tied to fertility.)

190

Hee hee. Something tells me that when the time comes, Olives will be temping and checking cervical mucus and using OPKs and charting it all on fertilityfriend.

Hide the pee sticks, honey. He doesn’t want to know.

191

Thanks olives that does clear some of it up for me.

I’m still a little confused about how this part, “He’s not even finished schooling and you want to stop earning and bring another mouth to feed into his world, while making all your debts his problem. Guess he’ll just have to take the first job he’s offered and hope for the best.”, is okay with you.

Because if I was the man it wouldn’t be okay with me. If my partner got all hurt and offended 'cause I didn’t jump all over this ill conceived plan, I’d be pissed, even if we’d agreed to, ‘one day’ have a family, a SAHM, adopt, etc.

I’d need a little breathing room too, between school and parenthood, especially if we’re talking about a special needs child, or the enormous expense of an adoption, or the expense of supporting a SAHM and a baby.

Personally I feel it’s him who should be acting wounded, not you, in all this. There doesn’t seem to be much consideration for him in the plan. Give the man some time to finish his education, find a job he’s comfortable with, (as opposed to the first thing he’s offered), pay down some of his debts and get his feet under him. I know, from all you’ve said about him, that he’s a wonderful guy. I think you should cut him some slack on this and not take it as such a wounding betrayal.

Just my opinion, of course, I understand you have little choice but to step back and give him time, you’ve admitted as much. I think you should dial back the ‘wounded you’ a little, is all, I guess.

192

That statement was false. Of course if it was true it wouldn’t be okay with me. I made it clear I’d do whatever it took, including work full-time from the beginning, but that was not my preference. I told him I preferred at least one year at home with the child and he told me he preferred that too. Then we crunched the numbers and it became clear that we were both able to have our preference. He was never at any point worried about money. I was the one worried about money. Once I realized we could afford it with no changes in standard of living, I stopped worrying. I even budgeted for my student loan debt.

This is what’s so annoying about this line of questioning. People keep pretending this was like some kind of whimsical irresponsible decision on my part. It wasn’t. I don’t make whimsical irresponsible decisions, and he’s even more of a planner than I am. We both agreed it would be a good idea. I crunched the numbers–exhaustively-- to make sure we’d be all right financially. We’ve talked about it to varying degrees and with varying scenarios over the course of years. We were both on the same page, completely, 100% until very recently.

This notion that he backed out because I ‘‘sprung it on him suddenly’’ or because I was placing all these burdens on him is a complete fiction. He backed out because his feelings changed. He changed his mind.

If he didn’t want to deal with adoption process, I’d give birth. If he didn’t want to be the sole breadwinner, I’d work. He told me he wanted X, and gave him X. He told me he needed Y, I gave him Y. Whatever he needed to be okay with this, I was willing to give, but the ultimate answer is that nothing I was able to give was enough.

He was not some poor helpless victim, I am not some crazy impulsive lunatic. This was a heavily discussed, mutually-agreed upon long-term decision between two partners in an egalitarian household. The implication that I made some misstep or error in judgment that caused this to happen is unfair.

Yeah, well easier said than done. If I could just turn off my feelings I would. Since we aren’t going to have a child any time soon, my feelings are pretty much all that’s left here. Since he would mostly like to forget this ever happened, I’m trying to deal with this on my own.

Maybe it will all blow over, but the reality is right now I am having feelings toward my husband I have never had in our entire eight years together. I would do anything to make them stop. If I had to sign a contract promising never to have a child, and in exchange was to never feel this way about my husband again, I would do it. I am absolutely horrified and disgusted and confused by how I feel right now, but the last thing in the world I am going to do right now is add to the pain by trying to force myself to feel another way.

193

Thanks for clearing that part up, I can see it more clearly now, and I appreciate the effort you put into explaining it for me. I hope my questions were not impertinent, I didn’t intend for them to be.

It looks like it comes down to; with a long term plan penciled it, circumstances caused you to change your view on the timing, wanting to move it up in response to changed circumstances. Fair ball.

And I can appreciate that having spoken at length, crunched the numbers, offer to work or not, as he would prefer, to get him on board and then, have him change his view on the timing would really sting. Especially as you’ve gotten excited at the prospect that it’s really going to happen, yay!

It does sound like he sincerely tried his best to go along with your changed time line, when it came up, initially. I respect that he both recognized and admitted he wasn’t ready just yet, even if it was a little late to do so.

I do hope this doesn’t ultimately come between you, it has always seemed to me that you have something enviable with him.

Knowing he was forgiving of your timeline change, when it was brought up, even if he didn’t end up going along eventually. And knowing you’re trying your best to be good with his need to change the timeline from your ideal, strikes me as a very healthy sign. Maybe you just need a little time to be more circumspect. I certainly wish you nothing but the best, sounds like when the time is right for you both, you’ll be amazing parents that any child would be lucky to have, that’s for sure.

194

When I sound testy, it’s not personal, it’s just that I feel like I’ve had to defend our decision to have a kid since the beginning of this thread, when really what the emphasis of the thread should be is how I deal with the reality of not being able to have one for probably a long time.

I’ve accepted that he’s not ready to have a child. I even understand why he’s not ready to have a child, and would find it hard to feel differently if I were in his shoes. I did, indeed, do everything I could to make it work, and I did, indeed, believe it was finally going to happen, for real.

I don’t think unloading all my anger on him is going to help. I don’t think treating him differently is going to help. The other night I was laying in bed stewing and I decided to stop the negative thinking by just turning and holding onto him while he slept. This really did make me feel better. He noticed and commented the next morning how nice it felt. I didn’t tell him that it was a decision that came out of anger.

From what I can tell, those intimate moments with him are everything right now. A few days ago we did argue again, but by the end of the conversation I ended up learning something about his daily experience I didn’t know before. It caused the bad feelings to dissipate.

So I think part of what’s at the root of all this is a feeling of lost connection. Like if we could so easily be at totally opposite ends of the spectrum, maybe somehow in all the business of grad school we lost a connection with one another. I mean we’ve been doing the best we can but when you don’t get that much time with the one you love, it’s hard sometimes to pick up on the nuances of your partner’s daily life. I know my husband is a Ph.D. student, and I know he has lab and clinical duties and his master’s thesis and everything, but what does that even mean, in concrete terms? When we had that discussion I felt like I was getting to know him all over again, and it felt good.

Maybe when you’ve been with someone for so long you assume they haven’t changed, but they have. I don’t mean that in a cynical way, I mean it in a reality way. We are not at all the same people we were at age 19 (thank GOD), and maybe this is a sign of that, a sign that we’re stuck in old habits and old assumptions and it’s time to just get lost in that ‘‘getting to know you’’ giddy phase of a relationship all over again. Maybe it’s time for us to look at one another in a new light, as the couple we are now rather than the couple we ‘‘always have been.’’

Does this make sense? As much as I hate feeling these angry and hurt emotions, they seem to be leading somewhere ultimately productive. As long as I let them teach me rather than rule me, I’ll be okay.

I’m gonna be honest with you elbows, this might sound arrogant, but I’m not sure that anything could kill our relationship. Sometimes I think the reason I’m reacting to this so strongly is because we have both been spoiled as hell and that not being perfectly aligned is just normal life for most couples. I try to take comfort knowing that a LOT of couples probably go through this and ultimately it all works out.

Thanks for the kind words, they are really appreciated. I know we will be good parents someday. And even if I’m ready now, I suppose I can only be more ready with time.

195

Not arrogant to my ears, just dangerous.

There are things that should kill a relationship. There are relationships that should end. That point comes when the people are putting the idea of the relationship ahead of the happiness and well-being of the people in it.

Relationships are important and valuable, but they are only as solid and fulfilling as the people in them are fulfilled.

196

Nah, it doesn’t sound arrogant to me. And doesn’t surprise me that you should say such a thing. I’ve always gotten a very similar vibe, whenever you speak of him.

“As long as I let them teach me rather than rule me, I’ll be okay.”

Yeah, you never cease to impress me, olives.

197

olives, one thing perhaps to consider is whether your anger and feeling of lost connection stem from worry over whether he is ever actually going to want to have kids? Five years is a long enough period that predicting one’s changes in feelings is hard, and you may be wondering whether it genuinely represents a time when he is likely to be ready, or just a way of saying “let’s forget about this issue for a long time.” And then it’s easy to worry “what if five years go by and he’s still not ready?” “Will there ever be a time that feels right?” Etc.

I’m not suggesting that you should think he’s consciously deceiving you at all, but rather that it would be understandable for you to wonder about how well he knows his own mind on this question.

In any event, you’re right that your feelings are what they are. Five years is a long time for you to carry around that kind of uncertainty and longing. You say that you’ve accepted that he’s not ready, but still you’re lying in bed, stewing. This won’t be healthy to your relationship in the long run. I’m not saying that you should unload your anger on him, but you can’t hide it from him either. Whether it’s fair or not, you’re angry, and the best thing for your relationship, it seems to me, is for the two of you to find ways to work through that anger together.

198

It’s probably a flaw on my part, but if my partner and I both went into a serious relationship/marriage with the agreement that we both were committed to having children, and he played the “I’m not ready” game for a few years before finally saying “You know what? I just don’t want kids, sorry,” I wouldn’t be able to stay in the relationship. Now, I’m not telling you OMG OLIVES DIVORCE HIM, I’m just wondering how, when you want to have children so badly (and I totally understand and empathize), will you ever let that go if he admits he doesn’t ever want them? How will that be remotely possible, with how much you want it?

Again, it’s probably a testament to the relationships I’ve had as opposed to the one you and your husband have, but I wouldn’t be able to stay in a marriage or relationship where we came to differ on something so fundamental. I’d resent the fuck out of my partner.

I wish you all the best, I really do. I can’t imagine going through this.

199

I do believe he wants children someday. In fact, totally unprompted by me, he commented last night that he maybe sees it happening after he finishes his dissertation or once he starts his internship – which means he went from an estimate of five years down to just two or three. If he didn’t want children, I imagine he wouldn’t be trying to figure out how to fit them into our lives earlier.

We talked with the understanding that he might feel differently later, but I think he’s just been in a bad spot recently and freaked out. Then when I freaked out in response, he freaked out even more. I think we just need a little more time for our emotions and lives to settle and eventually everything will work out.

I have noticed the nasty feelings are starting to calm down. We made dinner together last night and talked and watched TV. He was excited about my idea of ‘‘getting to know one another’’ again. He really wants to share his work with me in a way that focuses on positives more than negatives. We are going to be just fine.

A loong time ago, back before neither of us were anywhere near ready to have children, I went through a phase where I thought I didn’t ever
want kids at all. He was not very happy about it, but after thinking it over, he said, ‘‘I do want children, but I’d rather be with you and not have children than be without you.’’

This is essentially how I feel. As much as I want kids, they are basically an abstraction while he is a flesh and blood human being who makes my life better every day. It’s the difference between the conceptual loss of a person I would love and an actual loss of a person I do love. He knows how I feel and I believe he would tell me the truth if he didn’t want children or even if he was starting to have doubts about ever wanting them.

My husband actually loves kids in general far more than I do. He works with them all the time. Most of his clinical experience has been with children. He’s done behavioral research with kids and was a volunteer at a shelter for displaced and abandoned children. He also worked with children at a day-camp who had extreme behavioral difficulties. This dude really, really likes being around kids, and he’s patient and calm around even the most challenging ones. This is why I know he will be a great Dad someday.

He also has been reading this thread, and his greatest source of irritation is the implication by several Dopers that he doesn’t really want kids. He feels really misunderstood in this thread on that point. So there are a lot of signs here pointing to him wanting children at some point, just not now.

Either way, I’m in it for the long-haul.

200

Try thinking of a future mother in law, pressuring the man into marrying her daughter already! It’s not that he doesn’t want to marry the daughter so much as the fact that there are some decisions in life that one needs to make in ones own time. Applying pressure only muddies the water for that person. They need to feel they came to it on their own terms, is all.

One of the very hardest life lessons I had to learn, (over and over, I dare say), was that you can’t push a rope. (God Damn It!)

I’m happy to hear you’re both making nice and the resentment is fading. I never doubted for a moment that he really wanted children, truly. Nor did I ever doubt that you’d come round to a better place with it all. You rock!