I was inspired to post the OP after getting involved in a debate regarding the study which was cited about halfway down the first page of this thread. Too many people, fundamentalists mostly, suggest that if you are gay, it’s because you chose that orientation - “bad gay!” Heterosexual bystanders who don’t normally discuss issues about sexuality may not find that position all that controversial, since they aren’t all that sensitized to the issue. Asking heterosexuals to reflect upon that question as it pertains to them personally can potentially, IMO, set off light bulbs, as in, ‘oh, I get it, people DON’T choose their sexual orientation, so those fundamentalists who say gays choose their “lifestyle” are wrong.’
If a question gets people thinking and talking about the issue, it’s useful and good.
Whoa, whoa. Calm down. The part of your post that I quoted seemed to be saying that.
Am I to understand that you are bisexual? If so, when you said “It’s not about sex primarily, it’s about attraction. It’s about who you fall in love with… that’s what it’s all about. Not sex,” you were speaking specifically from a bisexual frame of reference?
See, it seems to me that you were saying that “falling in love” has little to do with sex. Or were you saying that sexual orientation has little to do with falling in love? Do you mean this only from within a bisexual frame of reference? Because I was disagreeing with your contention from a “monosexual” frame of reference – that is, gender has a great deal to do with who monosexuals fall in love with, since for us, falling in love is a romantic term for a deep emotional connection which begins with a physical attraction, which for us is gender specific.
I’m certainly willing to concede that, though I think that was not entirely my fault.
<Quiz show Announcer voice>“Can you identify this sound?”
snnorrrrgxxxggghhh!!
“Yes, it’s the sound of Tygr jamming a toothbrush loaded with 409 up his nose in an attempt to forcibly remove the image of a teddy-clad Janet Reno from his cortex! You win a lifetime supply of nipple-clamps!”</Announcer voice>
…
Wait, are you talking about the Will Ferrell Janet Reno? 'Cause to tell you the truth, picturing him/her in a teddy is making me… um… emotionally confused.
This post has been brought to you by Formula 409™, the brain cleaner of choice. For tougher cerebellum cleaning jobs, try professional-strength Liquid Braino™!
I am bisexual, yes. No, I wasn’t speaking specifically from a bisexual frame of reference.
Now it sounds like you’re saying that love has nothing to do with physical attraction for bisexuals, only for monosexuals, but I’ll assume that’s a typo of sorts.
What I was saying is this: sexual orientation isn’t about who you have sex with. It’s about who you’re attracted to, and who you fall in love with. That phenomenon certainly has a link to sex, but sex isn’t what it’s all about. If I were to cut off your genitalia, you’d still be straight. An impotent gay man is still gay. Like Libertarian said (and I believe this is the first time I ever agree with Libertarian):
And, just like iampunha, if sexual experiences were the gauge, I’d be as straight as they come. But I still want to fuck Elijah Wood.
Okay, it’s not about who you do have sex with. But it’s also not necessarily about who you think is a great person. I might think Joe is the best guy in the world but you won’t see me crawling in the sack with him.
Now when you start tampering with anatomy, you have the potential to take away the “ick” factor. That’s when it starts to depend on the individual.
aryk29, I don’t see you disagreeing with me. Where did I say anything about anyone being a great person? What exactly are you disagreeing with? Do you think you’d stop being straight if I castrated you?
Am I the only one who finds this comment 100% self-contradictory? Not to be rude, aryk. I just don’t get it. If something was decided before you were born, it’s pretty much got to be genetic, doesn’t it? I mean, there are environmental factors in the womb, but those shape your genes too…
The rest of your post pretty much says the same thing. “Different people are inherently different and behave differently, and nothing is going to convince me that genes have any direct role in behavior.”
What MAKES them inherently different? If it’s not environment (upbringing, etc.), that pretty much leaves heredity.
Again, this seems to contradict itself. If people are born different instead of becoming different, what can be responsible for it except genetics? You said it yourself- “we are not all born identical.” People have different genetic material, and that can make them predisposed to different things.
Studies seem to indicate that gays and lesbians ARE genetically different in some ways (prenatal wash is different, gay men may have different hypothalamus sizes, lesbians appear to be more at risk for at least one rare disease, etc.). More research has to be done, and things that are genetic aren’t necessarily set in stone forever. But there’s no question they have an impact.
I’m sorry, I didn’t answer the question about myself. No, I don’t think I chose to be straight. I certainly don’t remember making any such conscious decision, and since I do sexuality is largely genetic, that wouldn’t make any sense in the first place.
What I’m saying is, I don’t see how genes could influence behavior. Genes are chemical, not physical. Maybe they direct the growth of certain brain structures but I prefer to think that we are sentient beings, not robots built around brain structures.
Nobody’s going to find a gay gene (or even a straight gene, for that matter). What correlation exists between the parents’ sexual orientation and that of their offspring? If there is any such correlation, it’s probably that parents who are not straight are less likely to be part of the unenlightened crowd and less likely to teach their kids bigotry (whether intentional or otherwise).
Which brings us back to environmental forces. Of course they shape the way we react to stimuli, but the fact remains that siblings born of the same parents, with the same upbringing, do not emerge as carbon copies of one another. Behavior is individual. Genes and environment, even together, don’t cut it for me - there has got to be something else.
Maybe I misread your statement. It sounded to me like you said it’s about being attracted to the person inside. I meant it’s actually about whether the attraction is to the same or opposite gender, or both. I interpreted your statement to mean that it wasn’t about sex, and disagreed because it is.
No. Castrating somebody does 2 things - renders them unable to father children and stops the flow of testosterone. Personally, neither of these would change my orientation.
As I recall, I was attracted to females for as long as I remember. And that includes as a 5 year old…of course the attraction was at a very dreamy level at that age. As I approached adolescence, the attraction became very specific and…uuhhh…physically oriented.
The interesting thing is that my attraction to females (I’m male) has kept pace with my age. Although I can appreciate the considerable physical attractions of young women, my real attraction seems to keep in synch with my age. That will probably gross you out…a guy being attacted to “ladies of a certain age”…ahhh, yes!
I fell in love with a lesbian at work. I had never been with a woman before but I wanted her! We flirted and were playful while I went thru a divorce. As soon as I was divorced we formed a bond that was inseperable and carried on a relationship with her for 3.5 years. She eventually left me for an older, richer lesbian. This was 3 years ago Nov 3. I have not been intersted in women since. Only men. So I guess I am not sure why I changed teams for the chick at work but I did and I do not regret it. I consider myself hetero.
Left-handedness is genetic, and it influences your behavior, doesn’t it? And maybe it’s a stereotype, but left-handedness is usually associated with certain tendencies, like an interest in or aptitude for the arts, etc.
I’m not sure what this means.
There’s no maybe about it, genes direct the growth of your brain and everything else. We’re sentient, but that doesn’t mean genes don’t affect our behavior. It’s not an either/or thing.
That’s because there is gay gene. That’s not what I said.
I don’t know if there’s a correlation. But then, I didn’t say homosexuality was passed from parents to kids. Most gay people probably have straight parents because (1) more people are straight than gay, and (2) straight people are more likely to have kids.
What else is there? You’re not leaving anything else except choice, which few people (here or elsewhere) think is the case. And even choice is shaped by genes and environment.
