Hey American Left: Can we stop calling people "trash?"

[Eonwe]

@Banquet_Bear

The context of the usage of the word from the examples posted in this thread seems pretty clear. The word is being used by people of colour, feminists, and people that could be described as “social justice warriors” to express a sentiment that IMHO is not an unfair one. Getting angry at the word “trash” is like getting angry at the hashtag #blacklivesmatters. It appears to be disproportionate, and as I said before, targeted at a specific sub-set of the “American left” that people are reluctant to call out. Calling it “dehumanizing” is a cop-out. It is no more dehumanizing than any other dehumanizing word.

So for me its option 3. Nobody has made the case that “trash” is worse than any other word. It is no more dehumanizing than any other dehumanizing word. And if you object to the word “trash” on the basis of it being “dehumanizing” or you think that “some people don’t deserve it” then you must also object and reject every single other “bad word” as well.

I concur that ‘trash’ isn’t special; it’s a synonym for “shithead” or “bad person” or something like that; it’s just a verbal way of spitting on someone.

That said, in current parlance, it’s being held up and fought for as some sort of factual descriptor of large demographic swaths, for example:

@Eonwe

Men are trash.

. . . I find the logic that “proves” that “men are trash” to be stretched and convoluted at best, and the usefulness of the moniker to be non-existent. When Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Louis CK, Donald Trump and I are all “trash,” and there is nothing I can do or change about myself to remove myself from their company, where, exactly, is the way forward?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Eonwe

. . . I find the logic that “proves” that “men are trash” to be stretched and convoluted at best, and the usefulness of the moniker to be non-existent. When Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Louis CK, Donald Trump and I are all “trash,” and there is nothing I can do or change about myself to remove myself from their company, where, exactly, is the way forward?

…as I’ve already quoted from one of your cites:

It’s not having your feelings fucking hurt and pouting when called trash. “Trash” is just a word to encapsulate a range of selfish, destructive and oblivious behaviors. Behaviors that we’ve come to accept as male birthrights—even going as far as (half) jokingly calling ourselves and allowing ourselves to be referred to as “dogs.” It’s recognizing that there’s no distinction between “men are dogs” and “men are trash.” One has a less negative connotation and is more likely to be embraced, but they describe the exact-same behavior. It’s accepting that those selfish, destructive and oblivious acts aren’t inherently male. They’re just inherently trash.

Do you think thats unfair? The “way forward” is recognizing that yes: a large range of behaviours that society has come to accept as “male birthright” are also selfish, destructive, and oblivious. Is trash a mean word? Yes it is. Is it worse than the systematic and ingrained sexism and racism that permeates nearly every fabric of society? Not even fucking close. Should the people using the word “shut up” because you “can’t see a way forward?” I don’t think so.

[wonky]

@Eonwe

I concur that ‘trash’ isn’t special; it’s a synonym for “shithead” or “bad person” or something like that; it’s just a verbal way of spitting on someone.

I don’t agree, though I don’t think there’s a bright line. I think calling someone a bad person is acknowledging, simplistically, that they are a person. Calling someone trash is saying they should be discarded as worthless.

To me, there are clearly some epithets on one side of the line, clearly some on the other, and a lot that are in a scrum in the middle. The difficulty of deciding exactly where the line is, again to me, doesn’t mean that avoiding some terms isn’t a good idea.

[wonky]

@Banquet_Bear

…what is inherently bad about the word trash that can’t be applied to other bad words? I’ve asked the OP for examples but they have chosen not to do so.

Trash, vermin, termites, dirt, rats, pigs, maggots, etc. all have a history of being used against populations with the specific goal of dehumanizing them. Once you can successfully dehumanize your opponents, you can justify doing things to them you wouldn’t do to real people.

Despite the fact that I call my cat a jerk (he is totally a jerk), “jerk” doesn’t tend to be a word that we use for non-humans. Some of the more idiosyncratic insults are frankly too random to strike me as particularly troubling. Your mileage may vary, as it will with everything involving language.

(I thought I had already posted this, but it turns out I hadn’t.)

[Banquet_Bear]

@jsgoddess

Trash, vermin, termites, dirt, rats, pigs, maggots, etc. all have a history of being used against populations with the specific goal of dehumanizing them. Once you can successfully dehumanize your opponents, you can justify doing things to them you wouldn’t do to real people.

Despite the fact that I call my cat a jerk (he is totally a jerk), “jerk” doesn’t tend to be a word that we use for non-humans. Some of the more idiosyncratic insults are frankly too random to strike me as particularly troubling. Your mileage may vary, as it will with everything involving language.

(I thought I had already posted this, but it turns out I hadn’t.)

…but this thread isn’t about “vermin, termites, dirt, rats, pigs, maggots.” Its about “trash.” Why isn’t this thread about the other words? I don’t think its about the word “trash.” Its about the sentiment behind it: specifically about “men” and “white folk.”

[wonky]

@Banquet_Bear

…but this thread isn’t about “vermin, termites, dirt, rats, pigs, maggots.” Its about “trash.” Why isn’t this thread about the other words? I don’t think its about the word “trash.” Its about the sentiment behind it: specifically about “men” and “white folk.”

Okey dokey.

[Eonwe]

@Banquet_Bear

…as I’ve already quoted from one of your cites:

It’s not having your feelings fucking hurt and pouting when called trash. “Trash” is just a word to encapsulate a range of selfish, destructive and oblivious behaviors. Behaviors that we’ve come to accept as male birthrights—even going as far as (half) jokingly calling ourselves and allowing ourselves to be referred to as “dogs.” It’s recognizing that there’s no distinction between “men are dogs” and “men are trash.” One has a less negative connotation and is more likely to be embraced, but they describe the exact-same behavior. It’s accepting that those selfish, destructive and oblivious acts aren’t inherently male. They’re just inherently trash.

Do you think thats unfair?

I think that’s re-defining a word after the fact to improperly frame emotionally-satisfying name-calling as an intellectual exercise that furthers the fight against the patriarchy.

Saying “I’m going to call you a name, and if you don’t like being called names, that’s just proof that you deserve to be called stuff” is neither reasonable nor constructive.

@Banquet_Bear

a large range of behaviours that society has come to accept as “male birthright” are also selfish, destructive, and oblivious.

Absolutely.

Is trash a mean word? Yes it is. Is it worse than the systematic and ingrained sexism and racism that permeates nearly every fabric of society? Not even fucking close.

Who said they were equivalent? What’s the point of the comparison? “At least I’m not as bad as [some more evil person]” is never a good justification for treating others poorly.

Should the people using the word “shut up” because you “can’t see a way forward?” I don’t think so.

No, I don’t think they should shut up. Not sure whose post you got that from (or why you put that in quotes) but it sure as heck wasn’t mine; I have no belief in that straw man, thank you very much.

What I do think is that calling people “trash” (or “shit” or “worthless” or any number of other equivalent terms), is an effective way to express rage, and to evoke anger and a defense response in others, but not an effective way of accomplishing much else. So, efforts to defend “men are trash” as an important statement of truth, feminism, and anti-patriarchy are ultimately misplaced, and a little disingenuous.

[Bullitt]

@Banquet_Bear

…but this thread isn’t about “vermin, termites, dirt, rats, pigs, maggots.” Its about “trash.” Why isn’t this thread about the other words? I don’t think its about the word “trash.” Its about the sentiment behind it: specifically about “men” and “white folk.”

>> this thread isn’t about “vermin, termites, dirt, rats, pigs, maggots.” Its about “trash.” Why isn’t this thread about the other words?

You miss the point, entirely. It’s not about label A being any better or worse than labels B or C or others, it’s about acknowledging that this label, trash, is bad to use for people, and it’s good to stop using it in that context. If we can stop using trash, that’s a good thing. A step in the right direction. And by extension if we can then stop using other bad labels, then that’s a good thing too. Let’s stop calling people names, and let’s speak of the actions or behavior and call that reprehensible or cruel. Let’s not label the person as such, regardless of if you’re right, center, or left, although the OP was asking leftists to stop.

>> Its about the sentiment behind it: specifically about “men” and “white folk.”

Wow. Where does that come from? That seems totally off base. How do you make that connection?

[Eonwe]

@jsgoddess

I don’t agree, though I don’t think there’s a bright line. I think calling someone a bad person is acknowledging, simplistically, that they are a person. Calling someone trash is saying they should be discarded as worthless.

To me, there are clearly some epithets on one side of the line, clearly some on the other, and a lot that are in a scrum in the middle. The difficulty of deciding exactly where the line is, again to me, doesn’t mean that avoiding some terms isn’t a good idea.

I agree, and I think in my effort to make a point I didn’t think as deeply as I should have about what I was saying. I do think that current use of “trash” has little to do with any specific meaning of the word “trash” and more to do with connotations about, as you say, being worthless.

[Richard_Parker]

@Banquet_Bear

I’ve asked the OP for examples but they have chosen not to do so.

I’ve been away from the board. I am objecting to calling people trash in pretty much all contexts, so I don’t see why examples are relevant to your criticism of me. Nor have I seen you explain why you think I am criticizing feminists and black people, which is what seemed like such an oddball claim to me.

I am not trying to argue that calling people trash is somehow worse than lots of other dehumanizing epithets, though I suppose there’s an argument to be made that trash is something that definitionally has no redeeming value. I don’t think it’s really worse than calling someone vermin. “Trash” just seems increasingly common to me in my social circle, and especially among people who I think otherwise subscribe to judging people’s actions and not their basic worth, so I made a thread about it. If you’d like to join me in denouncing all dehumanizing insults, I welcome you! But it doesn’t sound like you do.

[Max_Torque]

Just listened to a podcast about the history of early American settlement. For a long time, the people who came over were either the poorest people imaginable, or criminals or others who were looked down on by society, often sent against their will. The administrators often referred to such people by a word that saw a lot of use back then: “waste.” The concept of “waste” was big back then; anything that wasn’t productive, anyone who wasn’t making his square of the world better, was “waste.” The waste people of England settled in swamps and undesirable locations while the upper classes kept the choicest land for themselves. Eventually, the waste people became today’s “white trash”.

The Dollop podcast, episode 295, “Swamp People of Carolina”, if you’re interested.

[Maggie_the_Ocelot]

This is very interesting to me because, as someone who spends a lot of time on Tumblr (shut up, I know), which skews heavily toward the young-politically active-AFAB demographic, I see the word “trash” used overwhelmingly as a slightly humorous self-descriptor, generally combined with something you’re totally into.

e.g.:
“But then, I’m Reylo trash, so I’m gonna see everything through that lens” (Reylo - the belief that Rey and Kylo Ren will be/should be in a relationship)
“Yeah, me and a bunch of other Hamiltrash took over the karaoke and did the whole soundtrack.” (Hamiltrash - big Hamilton fans)
etc

As LMM once commented “When the kids really like a thing, they call themselves the trash of the thing.”

It can also be used in a more self-depricating than self-descriptive sense, e.g. “And of course I didn’t get the living room clean on time, because I’m trash that way.”

But the point is, it’s mostly used as a descriptor of oneself. To use it against someone - to call them “Reylo trash” - is a lot more insulting and implies that not only is the person you’re talking about trash, but also everyone else who likes Reylo. (Ship wars are a Big Deal.)

I think it comes at least partly from the word “eurotrash”, which I’m not sure of the definition of - it seems to be an East Coast word.

Anyway, I believe it comes from this demographic originally, as a lot of terms do. I believe I read an article a while back that said that most slang terms that are widely adopted originate in one of two communities - either the Black community, or young (white) women/teenage girls.

Ah! Here’s a different article on the young-women’s side of it. Move over Shakespeare, teen girls are the real language disruptors

[sleestak]

@BigT

I realize that, while my post was heartfelt, I kinda skated around the OP, without responding to this.

1. As you can tell by my post, I disagree. In fact, those are specifically the type of people who are trash.

…

But I think it is naive to pretend there aren’t some people who are garbage, and I think telling people to not call them on it is only making things worse. It’s perpetuating the paradox of tolerance.

The basic reason to not refer to people as trash isn’t about them, it is about yourself*.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.

Slee

*Though, admittedly, I have not been good about this in the past. I am making a conscious effort to change my thinking.

[Katriona]

@Two_Many_Cats

Okay. How about calling them human garbage?

No? How about wretched refuse? You know, like it says on the Statue of Liberty?

Garbage people, maybe?

[greenmario]

@Katriona

Garbage people, maybe?

I think ‘people of garbage’ is the preferred nomenclature

[Bryan_Ekers]

I can’t recall offhand calling anyone “trash” but I reserve the right to do so because freedom.

[wonky]

@sleestak

The basic reason to not refer to people as trash isn’t about them, it is about yourself*.

Slee

*Though, admittedly, I have not been good about this in the past. I am making a conscious effort to change my thinking.

It’s about yourself AND about how we contribute to the greater dialogue. If I convince myself Julius Publius Trumpusfanus is trash, then how much will I care if JPT’s rights are taken away? Trash doesn’t have rights. Rights are for real people. Maybe he doesn’t deserve as many rights as real people. Maybe he doesn’t deserve any. After all, he’s just that terrible.

And if I convince you that he’s trash, maybe you start to think the same way.

We know propaganda works. Let’s not try to convince ourselves that we can’t be a source or conduit of it and that it can’t go to some dangerous and hateful places.

[Guinastasia]

@jsgoddess

For those who see nothing at all wrong with calling people trash, is it because you believe that dehumanizing people via language is irrelevant? Or is it because you believe that it’s relevant but some people just really deserve it?

Because I think it’s hypocritical to say I can call someone a piece of shit, or a motherfucking bastard, but somehow trash is off limits. Don’t all insults really dehumanize people? I thought that was the point.

There ARE some people out there that are trash. There are some people out there that are pure, fucking trash/pieces of shit/warts on the butt of humanity, whatever.

shrugs

[Bullitt]

@Guinastasia

Because I think it’s hypocritical to say I can call someone a piece of shit, or a motherfucking bastard, but somehow trash is off limits. Don’t all insults really dehumanize people? I thought that was the point.

There ARE some people out there that are trash. There are some people out there that are pure, fucking trash/pieces of shit/warts on the butt of humanity, whatever.

shrugs

I think we’re back to: you need to pick a side.

[Bullitt]

@Bryan_Ekers

I can’t recall offhand calling anyone “trash” but I reserve the right to do so because freedom.

You are free to be mean and cruel. But the OP is asking we avoid it and I agree.