Hey, BlackKnight, ya cheap fuck!

The BBQ Pit
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I had this great, long post directed at Mockingbird earlier, but I lost my connection before I could hit send. Dammit!

So here’s the short version (and this is directed towards Blackknight as well, who used to be one of my favorite posters, but sadly, after this thread, is on my shit-list) :

The reason so many people enter the food service industry even without an official gurantee of tips, is because if you work in a resteraunt that attracts guests with some sort of class the possiblility of not recieving a tip is slim to none.

Recieving a tip is not a 50/50 chance thing. It’s more like a 98/02. I will reiterate that this is the case if you work in an establishment whose guests have some CLASS and won’t make pathetic attempts to justifiy being cheapskates.

I mean really, being too poor to tip? What the hell are you doing eating in a resteraunt anyway? If you’re poor to the point where $2 is going to break you, I highly doubt you should be there. Or perhaps you could order a cheaper dish and reserve the $2 you’ll be saving for a tip? Of course that would entail you not being a selfish, ettique lacking bafoon.

And the reason so many people are servers is because the money is damn good. Back when I was waiting tables, I was clearing roughly 30K a year. Try making that on minimum wage. That money came from tips, because I worked in an establishment whose patrons knew how to conduct themselves in society. The one thing I noticed as well is that a great deal of my better tippers where blue collar workers, the more well-to-do people tended not to tip as well. So I highly doubt it’s a matter of being poor, it’s more a matter of being cheap.

So for all the people crying “if you don’t like it, complain to your boss!” and my personal favorite “you knew what you were getting into when you took that job!” I’d just like to say when I waited tables, I liked the system, because I hardly ever had to deal with such ettiqute lacking, uncultured, cheap, customers. That allowed me to make a much higher wage than minimum.

Now, if I was getting stiffed mulitple times a day, then I wouldn’t have liked the system and your statements would hold a little more weight. But because such pathetic justifications for cheapness are in the minority (thank god) it’s a pretty decent system to work in and you are essentially trying to shift the blame for your server being stiffed from you on to their employer, or even them for picking a profession that relies on tips. That’s just sad. Take some personal responsibility.

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Blue collars maybe feel the need to tip more to overcompensate for being poorer in general, it’s a shame that baby will have to wait another month to get them shoes.
No one is saying that you should never tip, personally I feel better about myself if I dont tip bad service, that way I dont feel that the staff think I dint know good service from bad.
Cmon, only complete losers would tip the % on a bad meal + bad service, I know I aint goin down like that.

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smarm, honestly, were you dropped on yer head as a child? How many times do we have to tell you this thread is not about people who don’t tip for bad service!

And what the hell are you rambling on about there???

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I think smarm is talking about poor people who feel they should tip because they’re poor.

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I am afraid that I am going to have to 100% disagree with this. The reason that Working Class folks tend to tip better has everything to do with the fact that they are experiencing a sort of class solidarity with the person that is waiting on them. They know that the money that they leave for that person is going to make a difference in that person’s life. Also, there is a good chance that the server/served roll will be reversed at some point.

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Binarydrone, that was probably the best post in this entire wreck of a thread, my posts included.

About me forgetting to tip, there are two main reasons. One, I’m generally absent minded and forgetful about some things. Lots of people walk into a room and then wonder what they were going to do. I do that when driving. (Er, I mean I drive somewhere then try to remember why I drived there. Not that I drive into rooms … ) I misplace things like a fiend. I’ve noticed that it takes me longer than most students to memorize my class schedule and memorize the hallways and classrooms and which leads where. I’m the guy who goes to his friends and says, “Hey, did I tell you about X?” and they say, “Yes, three times.” I am absolutely dreadful with names, and only slightly better with faces.

(This is a bit strange, since with some things my memory is quite good. For instance, I’ve always been good at schoolwork because I can remember even minor things that the teacher said about something. Generally, I’m good with abstract things and bad with social things.)

The second reason is that I just wasn’t exposed to tipping very often. I’m sure my parents probably tipped when they took me out to eat for my birthday all those years when I was a kid, but it wasn’t something they pointed out and it wasn’t something that happened on a regular enough basis for it to seem “normal”. We usually only went to eat in sit-down restaurants in situations such as birthdays or visiting relatives. I don’t recall my parents or anyone for that matter ever actually telling me a thing about tipping.

So I was aware of the concept of tipping from early on, but it really wasn’t ever foremost in my mind.

I’m getting better about remembering, and after this thread I’m sure it will be permanently scarred upon my memory. :slight_smile:

As for other cultural norms that I break, there are probably quite a few but it’s hard to say exactly. I mean, I’m never quite sure how much eye contact to give people which probably creeps them out, but it’s not like anyone has said anything so that’s just a hypothesis. I suspect there are quite a few things that I do that are peculiar but that nobody has pointed out to me. Actually, I do know one - I simply cannot make small talk. I have a friend who can start a conversation with damned near anyone in any situation. I wouldn’t have the slightest idea how to do that, and I really don’t have the inclination to do that either. Online I can talk and talk and talk (I doubt you need more proof of that :D) but in real life I barely say anything to anyone if I can help it.

Ok, enough of that. Onto the matter of waiting as a job.

I acknowledge that waitstaff aren’t paid a living wage. But they are, at least according to my understanding of the cite given in the General Questions thread I linked to earlier, guaranteed minimum wage. I know this is not a living wage.

When I was working as a dishwasher in a truck stop, I got paid just slightly above minimum wage. That was not a living wage. Nobody tipped me. Nobody was expected to tip me. If anybody had tipped me, most people would probably think that person a bit odd. Of course, I was living with my parents then and didn’t require a living wage. However, for the sake of argument, let’s assume I wasn’t living with my parents then. Should I have recieved tips? If waitstaff should be tipped because they do not make a living wage, can’t that argument apply to any job that doesn’t pay a living wage? Is there something besides tradition that sets waiting tables on one side of the “Should be Tipped” line and other non-living-wage-paying jobs on the other side?

I would prefer that restaurants raise their prices if necessary than continue the tipping system. If this makes the food too expensive for me, so be it. I just don’t like being able to afford the food but have people tell me that I can’t eat it anyway unless I pay a supposedly voluntary fee. When I eat at a sit-down restaurant I sometimes do have enough to buy the food and eat it too, and in those cases I do tip (baring stupid memory or bad service). I just don’t think I should be expected to tip every single time or be a bad, horrible person.

I do have quite a bit of skepticism about this line, “The final fact taht I want to point out is that many, many people wait tables because it is the only thing that they can do.” I’m not saying, “Hey, if they want money they can become doctors!” What I’m saying is that there are many non-tipped jobs available that anyone who can wait tables can do. For example, I mentioned washing dishes. This does not require special skills or strength. There are cleaning jobs that don’t require special skills or strenth (aside from maybe the skill to use a vaccuum and the strength to carry it). There are countless fastfood jobs available in most areas. Most such jobs require significantly less skills than waitressing. I have a hard time believing that the above jobs are less flexible than waiting tables.

I am not saying that all or most or any waitstaff should switch jobs. I am saying that they have open to them many options of similar skill-level which do not involve tipping in any manner. I don’t believe there is a significant portion of them who really couldn’t do anything else.

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ha ha , “smarm” I like what you have done there, might I suggest a few others? spam , smamurai , pastrami, papparazzi, clam, ham, camel, chammel ferry crossing, etc. the height of comedy I am sure you will agree.

Lolacolcavisoncola I fear the Tipping/China gag must have used up your wit quota for the day.

But you are right, I am slightly askew with my posts here, but at least I am not scared to not tip sometimes.

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Alright Mockingbird and BlackKnight, I’ll say it straigt out. If service is adiquate/good/exceptional and you do not tip, you are a thief. There, no equivications, no weaseling, you are a flat out thief. Why? let’s look at the numbers:

Say you have a $100 check. Let us also assume that you are my only table that night ( no welshing around getting other diners to compensate for your cheap no-tipping ass ). You pay your $100 and waltz out the door to wherever it is cheap bastards go. At the end of the night, I am assumed to have made 8% tip by the IRS at the minimum, I get taxed on that ammount. I then have to tip out the Bar and the Busboy 15% of that minimum. So:

Check: $100
8% of the check : $8
Tax on $8, at estimated 30% tax bracket: $2.40
Tip out to Bar and Bus: 2.40
What I HAVE to pay out for the “priveledge” of waiting on you: $4.80
What you left me:$0
Ammount you STOLE from me: $4.80

Previcate all you want, those are the cold, hard numbers.

Fact is, you can dress it up all you want, dance around custom or “the way it should be” or whatever you want, but if you don’t tip you are stealing from your waitperson.

AND you are a cheap bastard. If I see either of you at a dopefest, I’m going to be sure that you get a seperate check, I don’t want to be associated in any way with your assholish tightwad ways.

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Certainly it’s your choice not to tip, but be mindful that when you don’t you’ve asked someone to provide a service to you essentially for free. And that people will have an extrememly low opinion of you for that. If you can live with that, then more power to you.

And as you said, after this thread, you won’t have forgetfulness as an excuse any longer!

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When someone brings a thread to an extreme level of stupidity by comparing someone to Hitler, Nazis, etc., we call it Godwinizing.

I propose that when someone spoils a thread by accusing someone of harming babies, we call it Smamminating.

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OMG! I know you won’t believe me, but I swear to God that was a typo!

But it is obviously my subconscious speaking!
Heh heh.

(I guess I mixed your name with Samarm’s)

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And that cracked me up!
Hear hear!

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Well, I’d like to take what you say to heart …

But this shows you can’t be trusted. :smiley:

I really don’t know how common tipping is, so I’ll take your word for this. But no matter the percentage, would you agree that the server is not entitled to a tip? Put another way, would you agree that the customer is not obligated to tip?

What I’m getting at is this: If someone does not tip, they are not automatically a bad person. They may be, but the fact of not tipping does not by itself mean they are breaking an obligation.

I just can’t help but imagine that scene from “Office Space”, with the flair. Is more flair voluntary or not? Is X more flair required or not? Sure, says the boss, it’s voluntary, but … That’s what tipping seems like to me. It’s trying to be both things at once. I say, either it is voluntary, in which case there should be no complaint if someone doesn’t tip, or it is required, in which case it is not really a tip but a part of the meal which of course must be paid in full.

Ok, I hope that made at least some sense, even if you don’t agree with it. I pulled an all-nighter last night working on something and I’m thinking getting involved in this thread for this long on this little sleep probably isn’t healthy. :slight_smile:

No need to worry. I don’t think I’d even be allowed in classy places. I don’t dress well enough.

Honest question: Are the servers selfish too? If they want me to eat less so they can make more, how is that not selfishness?

This sounds suspiciously like an argument from popularity.

For what? I didn’t con anyone into taking that sort of job. I didn’t decide what the payment type for that kind of job would be. I never deliberately plotted to piss off a server by not tipping them. If you just mean I should try to remember about tipping more often, well, I agree, and I’m working on it.

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Weirddave, if you and Ginger ever come to Pittsburgh for a Dopefest, I’ll buy you extra dessert!

That kicks ass!
Seriously, if you don’t want to tip, don’t. That’s your right.

And it’s my right to think you’re cheap and selfish.

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I will take a look at your numbers with an open mind. You might be able to convince me.

I’m going to try to understand your example, but I have a few questions, and I hope your answers will help me understand:
What does “tip out the Bar and the Busboy” mean? I know what a bar and a busboy are, but I’m not familiar with this lingo.
Where does the 15% come in? I see it listed once but not in the calculation.
Where does your hourly wage come in?
Where does the law about your employer having to make up the difference if wage + tips < minimum wage come in?

The interesting thing is, if your numbers are right then I’d be stealing from you regardless of how well you performed your job. I don’t think it’s right to steal from someone just because they do their job poorly, so if your numbers stand you’ll have made a good case for tipping regardless of the service.

Really? And why is that? Because I don’t tip 100% of the time? How low a percentage does one need before the “cheap” appellation applies? And the “bastard”? Does intent matter in these crimes?

Can you honestly justify the “assholish” part of that? Yeah, I’ll grant for the sake of argument “tightwad”, but “assholish”? I was joking about the kitten killing.

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Black,

Dude. Seriously. What is wrong with you? How could you be so willfully ignorant of the fact that not tipping is just…well…wrong.

About your whole “living wage/dishwashing” ramble. Let’s come back to reality for a moment. Why would someone choose to work in a job where they are guranteed to make no more than minimum wage when they could be working with a better than good chance of making much more via tips? Like I said before, fortunately, people like you, mockingbird and the others are in the minority. Most people tip. Most people know how to conduct themselves in society. So why would a server who ends up making much more than minimum wage choose to take a job with a promise of no more than minimum wage on the off chance that they may run into someone like you? That just doesn’t make any sense.

And other than the peices of fare the Natzi’s made the Jews wear (Office Space is one of my all-time favorite movies) tipping is not voluntary in the way you want it to be. Yeah, no one’s going to arrest you for not doing it, but you have made a major social fau paux. I hope you don’t take many dates to eat in resteraunts because if she sees you stiff the waitress, that’s a quick way to not get a second date.

Tipping is entitled to a certain extent when one is waiting tables. Servers are allowed to make up for their sub standard of living base salary because they are the only one’s who’s salaries are sub standard because of the fact that they recieve tips? Get it? That’s why you wouldn’t tip a dishwasher. Their salary is not based on the fact that they are expected to recieve tips.

Shit, if the government says that servers should expect tips and adjust their salaries accordingly, then why shouldn’t the server expect tips? :confused:

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Given that most people tip, I’d guess that for every non-tipper a server gets, s/he probably gets a generous tipper as well. Most people lie somewhere in between.

So, seriously, how many DECENT servers go hungry, are unable to pay their bills, or are otherwise unable to make ends meet because of the occasional non-tipper? If the answer is “zero”, then I don’t see an issue here. I would consider non-tipping to be an occupational hazard - it doesn’t happen often, but no one can reasonably expect it to not happen. And, I’d guess, it is frequently made up for by the more generous folks.

And lest anyone think I am trying to justify anything, I usually fall into the “moderate to generous” range, and have never denied anyone a tip, even if the service was bad. I just see this whole thread as much ado about nothing.

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OK, first of all BK, I do realize that you’re playing the devils advocate a bit here, you will notice that my statement was (underline added):“If service is adiquate/good/exceptional and you do not tip, (then)you are a thief”

Now: Busboys and bartenders are “tipped out” at the end of the night, generally 15% of my total tips. Since I made no tips in the above scenerio, they would get 15% of the minimum that I have to declare, in this case $8, or $1.20 each. Just as tips are what you pay me for good service, this is what I pay them for keeping the restuarant claen and pouring drinks.

Hourly wages of $2.13 usually get eaten up by tax- resturants withold based upon the total of your hourly wages and 8% ( or more, if you declare more ) of your total gross sales for that week. It’s pretty much a push. The law about making up the difference between $2.13 and minimum wage dosen’t usually come into play, most servers make more than that.

Now, I don’t lose money “no matter what you tip”. Look at it this way: in the example above, your table costs me at least $4.80, call it $5 round numbers. The way I look at it is this: That’s the money I’m risking on getting a higher payout because of the level of service that I give. I m “betting” that $5, in other words, that I can give you a pleasurable dining experience. If I do so, I “win the bet” with your tip. Say you give me $20- and 20% is what I tip for adiquate service-I’ve made $15. A $100 dinner will prolly take a couple of hours, that means I made $7.50/hour, which is good wages and for just one table. If I have 4 tables in my section, I would be making somewhere around $30/hr, assuming all of the numbers are constant. ( which they won’t be, but this is just an example ) You also have to work very hard to handle 4 tables and not get weeded.

Now, $30/hr is an excellent wage. Obviously, it’s not constant over the whole shift, but it gives you an idea as to why people would wait tables. If they swiched to “Pay the servers $7/hr, no tipping, we’ll charge more for the food”, I wouldn’t touch the job with a 10 foot pole, and I bet most other good servers wouldn’t either. I’d be willing to bet that if you did that, service would be routinely poor, the only ones left would be the wage slaves who couldn’t give a shit how you’re dining experience went, they were getting their $7/hr reguardless. What I liked about the job was the fact that if I busted my hump, I could make good money, that’s the only reason to be a waiter. Without that, it’s not a job worth having. I like the fact that worse comes to worse, i can go back to waiting tables or bartending and make 30-50K/year if I have to.

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** Darwin’s Finch **, I guess that the nit that I would have here is that, in the spirit of fighting ignorance, I would say that this thread is not “much ado about nothing” for a couple of reasons. First of all, it is dispelling the myth that not tipping is harmless. It is also placing this practice in the realm where it belongs. Bad manners.

Here is a little excursive for you non-tippers: please logically defend why it should be ok for you to walk around town with a big loogie hanging out of your nose. After all, it is technically not hurting anyone, and technically removing boogers from your nose is not mandatory. By the same token, apply your wonderful logic to not bathing, or walking around with your zipper wide open.

Bottom line: Tipping is the custom in this country. If you know about it, and choose not to do it you are either selfish and rude or you are a culturally insensitive boor.

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The thing is, if too many people start acting like the assholes, THEN the wait staff suffer.

So yeah, I’m not going to FORCE them, but I have every right to think they’re asshats.