Hey, Chumpsky, how about you enlighten us.

So, if we eliminate the corporation, which, by its nature, allows people to accomplish larger goals than they could alone, eliminate the profit motive, by severe taxes, and guarantee full employment, eliminating the need to strive, how do you suggest we go about wealth creation? Shall we have the government, a highly efficient organization, decree and control all tasks larger than singular effort? How is this an improvement over free will?

Secondly, yes, I am aware of these very bad things we did. Though the only ones I consider valid cases for reparation of some kind are 3 and 5. The others are… how shall I say this… the operation of government. Wars happen for reasons, and the winners do not have to pay the losers. Indeed, the losers do not have to pay the winners, unless the winners can make them. The prize of winning a war is continued self-determination.

Free will. Important thing for countries and people.

So, let’s narrow it down to, say, choice 3. What do we owe them? Not what can we do to help them, but what do we owe them? How can we make things right?

Airman Doors, USAF
Have You ever done something “not destructive”, like work?

The Fluffer
Have You ever done something “not destructive”, like work?

Both, take Your asses here to Russia. I give You work, housing, everything; music in Your taste, freedom to speak (we can speak in the park without mics). Whatever You want.
Just be my guests.

In the news You can be on this side or that side. I fix any channel You want. Just let me know when You cross the border and my taxi will wait for You. It takes only 23 hours.
Small step for a human…

I can give You guarantee letters. No-one will harm You!
I am not rich, of course not, no-one is, but You can be my guests a year or ten.
Look, Air… Just work for Your three-letter-guys, whatta chance!!!
I also work for the 3 letter guys. Against illegal weapons and narcotica.
And You can try my gift from them, a Kalashnikov…

Please come soon.

I can even send You the ticket money…

Stalin is almost dead, it is almost safe…

Hey, someone at the door…

Later, much later…

The Gaspode And who was in charge when Sweden fell down?
Answer: My father and the rest of the Moderaterna.

Fuck You, you monoculturel shit, that can’t even read Your own history.

Henry, you cretin, military service is something nondestructive. It is work.

Do you ever think before you post?

This is the kind of thing poor college sophomores looking to score at peace rallies like to rail about, but it’s silly to anyone who gives it some thought. Really, what aspect of corporate personhood do you find objectionable?

The right to sue and be sued? Would you rather an injured plaintiff have to sue the millions of individual GM shareholders rather than just the company itself?

The right to contract? Again, if you’re going to enter into an agreement with a company, does it make more sense to have to contract with just the entity itself, or to have to chase down every shareholder and get their acceptance?

Limited liability? That’s the whole reason corporations exist. It encourages investment. Do you really think it makes sense to have any Joe Schmoe who owns 100 shares of IBM be personally liable for every contract entered into and every tort committed by the company?

I don’t suppose it would do any good to point out that there are many ways where corporations aren’t treated like persons. They can’t plead the fifth, for example. Far from enjoying more rights than individual, natural persons, corporations enjoy only a limited subset of rights necessary to protect the rights of the underlying shareholders or to allow for reasonably efficient transaction of business. Sorry, but real life just doesn’t comport to your Rage Against the Machine-inspired worldview.

Chumpsky–Human governments–all human governments, including Socialist ones–depend on violence to achieve their ends. Laws are enforced; i.e. force is used. Ultimately, lethal force. Unavoidable. Automatic.

At the end, the Warsaw Pact came apart as people swarmed across the border to the West. Away from “The Workers’ Paradise”.

A “paradise” that required barbed wire, minefields, vicious dogs, & machine gun towers to keep people from running away from it. The penality for trying was death.

So, after you start your Socialist Workers’ Paradise here in the US, where you gonna put the mass graves? Juuust asking.

BTW–I personall feel that corporations have too much in the way of special rights, but I don’t think we need socialism to contain them.

Well, that’s why I love this message board; jerks like Chumpsky can come in here and lecture us on their personal mindset until our eyes bleed, but we still have the right to ask questions and call ‘bullshit’ when bullshit has been spoken.

Chump, for some reason you don’t seem to get that most of the people you talk down to here, to varying degrees work successfully within, and benefit directly from, the system you want to bring down. With that as a given, you’d better be prepared to come up with some pretty good explanations as to what, specifically, must be done to change it and why; more importantly, you’d better be able to clearly explain what’s in it for us. Slogans and vaque handwaving about greater democracy (through socialism? Since when is socialism synonymous with democracy?) are not specifics; dodging questions that you find uncomfortable (you ever going to answer those Venezuelans?) does not build credibility.

Furthermore, I submit that haranguing people endlessly about what shits they are for supporting the capitalist state is unlikely to make most people here warm to your views. By the same token, refusing to reveal anything at all about yourself is not an effective strategy for building trust and credibility. Put yourself in our position: who the bloody hell ARE you, anyway? Why should put any stock in the statements of someone who, when asked what he does for a living, sneers “fluffer”? Well, fuck you too, chief. Why should anyone listen to you, especially when you show little or no sign of listening to us?

Thus, finally, you’d better be willing to at least listen to opposing views, and to try harder to restrain your instinct to spew contempt for every little thing you disagree with. You aren’t an expert on everything; hell, since we know nothing about you at all (and that is your choice, remember), as far as we know you are not an expert on anything. When I read what you have to say about the status of corporations, then read a response from an attorney such Dewey, Cheatem Undhow, who am I more likely to believe?

As I and others have stated in previous threads, you have some interesting and sometimes provocative things to say. Unfortunately, your clear contempt for your audience, and your persistent inability to admit that some of the ‘facts’ on which you base your views might be wrong, completely destroy any credibility you might have built up during your time here.

The difficulty coming, as has been pointed out, after you unleash all this creativity. Since they are not allowed to benefit from it, nor to retain much of what they earn by it, they lose the motivation to create.

Indeed. Go into any public high school in Detroit, and imagine how many will take full advantage of the opportunities afforded them with free public education. And how many will not, and what to do with them.

Forgive me if I point out the obvious, but free health care, free education, free food, clothing, housing, a strict egalitarianism for the general population, and a lifestyle based on making reparations for past wrongs -

you are describing life in prison.
Regards,
Shodan

Not to hijack this thread, but if anyone’s interested in what Airman actually does, NPR ran a story on it at the end of December. Airman’s unit doesn’t do leaflet drops, but they do the radio broadcasts.

Here is the link for his unit.

Robin

Or I can fix the link.

Robin

You know what? Generally speaking, I think that I like his politics. They are a little left of mine, but at least there is some idealism there and some willing to engage issues on the level of morality, rather than this brutal capitalist take on things that I see so many folks here use.

In Chumsky I see at least sincerity and what seems to be caring about the conditions of others. His ideas may be a bit goofy, but in balance I get a lot less pissed off reading his rhetoric than the capitalist apologist.

Look people, the fact is that capitalism does not work for a whole lot of people. It is at least refreshing to hear someone say that out loud, even though it causes bleating in the rest of the sheep like suckers who have bought the lie.

Er, so Airman’s job is to help broadcast propaganda into Iraq?

Well, the response to this tidbit of info should be interesting.

Chumpsky said: “It is not corporations that create wealth. It is the workers, the creative and the industrious–those who come up with the new ideas, and those who do the actual work. The corporations then suck this wealth that has been created for themselves. There is no reason why we can’t arrange our economy so that the the great wealth of this country is invested in the people in a more equitable way.”
So let me see…let’s say I invest $10 million of MY money in starting a business…getting the plant built, making sure the environmental regulations are adhered to, the taxes paid, etc etc etc…so when I then hire 100 people to work for me and PAY THEM WAGES…I’m sucking their wealth from them???

::stoppit…you’re killing me…::
rotflmfao

And how do you square this view with Chump’s description of Cuba as a successful example of socialism?

I’m sick of “sincerity” being used as a measure of the validity of someone’s ideas. Give me an insincere capitalist over a sincere communist any day of the week; at least the capitalist isn’t throwing people into gulags.

So, Breadwinner Bob, computer geek, earns $50k. His take home: $50k.

Breadwinner Dan, corporate lawyer, earns $205k. His take home: $45k.

Boy, that’s some kinda incentive…

I don’t know Chumpsky. I respect your steadfast adherance to your views but your vision sounds a little frightening to me.

I just envision numbered masses standing in line to find out their jobs, “You will be trench digger. Next! You will be shirt folder. Next! You will be nurse assistant. Next! You will be student. Next!etc…”

Yikes.

Would there be Political Enforcement Ministers, with steel toed boots and blackjacks? “Time for your one hour of televised education, worker children.”

It’s like the Vonnegut story I read years ago, where the brighter and freer the spirit, the more lead weights the person had to wear. Equal society and all.

Would you be part of the commitee to build this society of yours? Why you and not, say, the homeless wino living under the bridge? Who would you trust to have the same morals and ethics as you? Is someone going to be a decision maker, or will every policy be endlessly debated by society?

Again, I enjoy reading your posts. They remind me of the self labeled “anarchists” of yesteryear. Bravo!

If those are examples of successful socialist countries, I’d like to know how bad you have to fuck things up before you’re considered an unsuccessful socialist country.

Chumpsky, you do realize that you’d be spending years in prison in your “successful socialist countries” for doing what you do here on an hourly basis- namely railing against the government.

Well, one person’s “steadfast adherance to…views” is another person’s close-mindedness, but hey, whatever.

Anyway, it’s pretty clear that in Chumpsky’s paradise, he’d very much need to be in a position to keep us informed as to what to do and how to do it, since we are insufficiently enlightened to manage on our own. He’d just be helping out, of course; benevolently and selflessly showing us the upward path, and all that.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss…

I’m not sure who was the greater influence on Chumpsky - Karl Marx* or Huey Long.

*or possibly Chico Marx.

Henry, I’m a fairly new Airman. Before this I worked like a slave at about five different places, never less than 10 hours a day, sometimes as many as 16, and I took all of five days off 4 out of those 7 years.

Have I ever worked? I’ve sliced the tips of both fingers almost off, I’ve dislocated my shoulder, I’ve temporarily damaged nerves, and I’ve been electrocuted. I’ve had a loaded .45 held to my head before. I’ve been robbed, attacked, and beat up. Hell yes, I’ve worked, in some of the shadiest places around.

And for that reason, I refuse to give some dude who’s never done anything but five years in Chino and a couple rounds with Brenda the block whore any of the money I’ve earned for myself. I also support the right to keep any money that is earned as a direct result of taking a risk through investment. Businesspeople take considerable personal risk to start businesses which provide good paying jobs. They’re entitled to the returns.

As for what I do now, I work. I risk my butt every time I get in the plane. I risk my butt trying to save lives, both theirs and ours. We make them quit rather than kill them. I’m rather proud of that, by the way. But trying to explain that to you is futile, I’m sure.

So, Henry, bite each and every inch of my considerably wide ass. You think you have it worse than me? Work to make it better for yourself like I did instead of whining that everyone owes you. I don’t owe you anything at all. Neither does anyone else.