**Only if we are to believe you over historians and Islamic experts**
Wasn’t this gone over two/three pages ago?
Make that three to four. Why doesn’t that verse apply?
*First: Aldebaran. I’m sorry, I can’t take you seriously. You’re Belgian, for crying out loud. hehehe. Blowero: Blow me, you òne syllabe snot.
To the rest of you, cunt-bashers: I don’t care. Got that? I’m not important in this issue. I don’t play on this message-board anymore. I’m merely fighting ignorance my way. [oh, mhendo: Try to read. It said "It was the first mosque openly in favor of female circumcision]
btw;there are nearly one million Muslims in the Netherlands. pop. 16 million.
In Greater Amsterdam 13 percent of the population are Muslims. *
http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=395"
All of the seven countries that treat homosexuality as a
crime punishable by death are Muslim. Of the 82 countries where being gay is a crime, 36 are predominantly Muslim.
Even in democratic societies, Islam remains
overwhelmingly anti-gay. Dr Muzammil Siddiqi, director of the Islamic Society of North America, says “homosexuality is a moral disease, a sin, a corruption… No person is born homosexual, just as nobody is born a thief, a liar or a murderer. People
acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education.”
Sheikh Sharkhawy, a cleric at the prestigious London Central Mosque in Regent’s Park, compares homosexuality to a “cancer tumour.” He argues “we must burn all gays to prevent paedophilia and the spread of
AIDS,” and says gay people “have no hope of a spiritual life.” The Muslim Educational Trust hands out educational material to Muslim teachers – intended for children! – advocating the death penalty for gay people, and advising Muslim pupils to stay away from
gay classmates and teachers.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2001/541/in2.htm
excerpts from Al-Moumni’s Rotterdam sermons. In them, the imam, whose flight to Europe may have saved him from imprisonment in a Moroccan all-male jail, calls Europeans lower than pigs or dogs because they tolerate homosexuality. He also advises Muslims not to allow their daughters to mix with people of a different faith. “This will lead to big problems. Wake up, fathers. Guard your honour,” he preached. After nine years in the Netherlands, the Imam has still not learnt Dutch.
*Something personal: Keep your filthy hands of our gays, you hear? You’ll find out that the easy-going Dutch can get very angry if you don’t.
Nota Bene: I can imagine muslims being scared shitless to post anything bad about the Islam *
Rushdie’s communication through the novel that he no longer believes in Islam. Khomeini called on all “zealous Muslims” to execute the writer, as well as those of the publishers of the book who knew about the concepts of the book. On February 24 Khomeini then placed a three-million-US dollar bounty for the death of Rushdie. Rushdie has since lived in hiding under British-financed security.
http://islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=102152
"All Muslim jurists agree that the apostate is to be punished. However, they differ regarding the punishment itself. The majority of them go for killing; meaning that an apostate is to be sentenced to death.
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/misc/rushdie.html
Other prominent members of immigrant communities, such as the Amsterdam-based lawyer Afshin Ellian and writer Hafid Bouazza have received similar threats after expressing criticism of Islamic culture.
About female circumcision
http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/aldeeb1/#Female
The goal of defending female circumcision in compliance with the sunnah is expressed in no uncertain terms by Al-I’tissam, an Islamic magazine from Cairo. This magazine protests against the WHO, accusing the organization of “distorting the truth of Islam”; Al-I’tissam requests Al-Azhar and all religious scholars to “open their eyes and be on the alert for those ideas coming to us from outside, so we can fight them, prove their foolishness and save Islamic customs” 108. Here are the advantages of female circumcision according to its male supporters:
A) It maintains cleanliness
Doctor Hamid Al-Ghawabi states that bad smells in women, cleanliness notwithstanding, can only be eliminated by cutting off the clitoris and labia minora109.
B) It prevents diseases
The number of nymphomaniacs is less among circumcised women. The husband may catch this disease and even die of it 110. Female circumcision prevents vaginal cancer 111 and swelling of the clitoris which could drive the woman to masturbation or homosexual relations 112.
C) It brings calm and gives radiance to the face
Female circumcision shields the girl from nervousness at an early age and prevents her from getting a yellow face. This statement is based on a narration by Mohammed: “Circumcision is makrumah for women” and "give them a glowing face"113. The exciser’s narration is also quoted to say that circumcision makes a woman’s face more beauutiful and makes her more attractive for her husband 114. According to a supporter of female circumcision, the latter brings good health and feminine grace to the girl and protects her morality, chastity and honour, maintaining within reason, of course, the necessary sexual sensitivity 115.
D) It keeps the couple together and prevents drug use
Doctor Hamid Al-Ghawabi admits that female circumcision does reduce the sexual instinct in women, but he sees this as a positive effect. With age, the male sexual instinct lessens. His circumcised wife will then be at the same level as him. If she was not, her husband would be unable to satisfy her, which then would lead him to drug-use in order to succeed 116.
E) It prevents her falling into what is forbidden
This is the most frequently cited reason. Professor Al-'Adawi from Al-Azhar says that female circumcision is makrumah, that is helps (the woman) "to remain shy and virtuous. In the Orient, where the climate is hot, a girl gets easily aroused if she is not circumcised. It makes her shameless and prey to her sexual instincts, except those to whom God shows compassion
http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/09/international/middleeast/09FPRO.html&OQ=pagewantedQ3DallQ26positionQ3Dtop
Ayaan Hirshi Ali was shocked when, as a university student, she held a job as an interpreter for Dutch immigration and social workers and discovered hidden “suffering on a terrible scale” among Muslim women even in the Netherlands. She entered safe houses for women and girls, most of them Turkish and Moroccan immigrants, who had run away from domestic violence or forced marriages. Many had secret abortions.
“Sexual abuse in the family causes the most pain because the trust is violated on all levels,” she said. “The father or the uncle say nothing, nor do the mother and the sisters. It happens regularly — the incest, the beatings, the abortions. Girls commit suicide. But no one says anything. And social workers are sworn to professional secrecy.”
HIJACK…SORRY
Oneday someone will find out which Kiwi bastard stuck that stick up your arse. I don’t care myself but if you want to slag of NZ start a thread.
You have slagged off NZ at least twice in threads involving Muslims. Was there a Muslim wearing a NZ cap in your past? WHO CARES!! Either leave it alone or start a “NZ is a wanky country thread”.
Hijack over (sorry)
Irish State schools have a very Catholic feel about them. You have to opt out of religion class(Cristian/Catholics teaching). My school had a resident priest a bi crucifix at the top of every class and a prayer room. There are Catholic schools, protestant, Jewish and Irish language private schools. It seems there is a market for private schools that cater for specific groups, go figure :rolleyes:
Actually apart from 2 in Dublin we don’t really 
Well then they’re at as much risk from me as I’m from them. Hmm I wonder has the head in my fridge gone off yet.
gum does the fact that Catholic priest and child abuser have become very closely linked (via the news) mean that all catholics are child abusers? Of course not.
Do christains killing abortion doctors mean that killing abortion doctors is something many Christains do? No.
Does the fact that NZ has a higher number of child beatings then it should mean Maori and Polynesians should not be allowed children because they are bound to abuse them? No.
Does the fact that NZ had the highest youth suicide rate in the world for several years mean we shouldn’t have children? No.
Does the fact that some Muslims do very bad things mean we should condemn Muslims? No.
Why should the majority of any race or religion be accused of the wrong doings of the few. Islam is not wrong. The fuckwits doing wrong are.
Most Muslims are as mum/dad and the kids as the rest of us.
Those evil wankers are not them…if this hadn’t happened they would probably be hurting their own family instead.
47, 4
It does not apply for several reasons.
-
It speaks of striking (with the use of the verb daraba, form I = to beating, to strike etc…) the enemy in the necks, it is not correct to translate this as “cutting of the enemy’s head”.
The translators I know of therefore correctly choose to translate as “kill them” or “beat them to death” as the best choice to give the intention of these words. -
It handles about confronting an enemy/disbeliever on a battlefield/in a battle and hence does not handle about how to treat people who were taken prisoner.
Which is clear enough (when you don’t come up with selectively read AQ quotes) because the verse continues as follows:
…*But when you then have received the upperhand in the battle then solidly bind them, wether to release them later (when the war has ended) or wether to exchange them against a ransom. So it is [the command of God]. And if God wanted He could revenge Himself on them. But He wants to test you with (against) eachother. And those who were killed on the way of God, (the benefits of) their deads will not get lost. * -
In this sura the verses 4-8, 11, 17, 19, 23 are intented to teach about God’s reprisals against His enemies and His recompensations for those who support His cause. Hence it has in no way any connection with
a) permission for taking civilian hostages, under no matter which circumstances or at no matter which location, under no matter which conditions
b) permission to make any kind of prisoners who were not involved in a war against God
c) permission for killing the above mentioned, since it is already not allowed to take them as prisoners/hostages
d) permission to decapitate them, since the verse itself, even if taken out of context and use as pretext for whatever invented “justificaiton” of the crime comitted, does not talk about decapitation.
The best one could eventually come up with is to translate it as describing slitting ones neck. Which is then indeed a litteral translation and going from there you can make of it that you can slit the enemy’s throat in a battlefield situation.
To Greenspiece:
I’m waiting for the lost verse that describes in detail FGM and was never published as part of Al Qur’an. Please give also a detailed description of where you found it and who did the discovery, so that I can contact that lucky researcher. Then we can rush first of all to the Al Azhar where we can start working on verifying its authenticity. I can’t wait to have such a shocking, completely unexpected discovery of such unmeasurable historical worth.
To gum: Maybe you can ask Lynn Bodoni to give you her perception on the location of the IP I use right now? I don’t think it is the same one as yesterday or the same as a few days ago, but it could eventually be the case. I don’t look it up all the time, so you can ask for it/them, come back and surprize me with it.
I have even a better idea: Why don’t you try to become a moderator, then you can constantly look them up yourself and come on board to tell me and the rest of the audience where it is located at any given moment.
Salaam. A
From gum’s own cite, the very same one quoted above…
http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=395"
In the interest of equal opportunity terrorism condemnation, anybody in for condemning this Fallujah massacre?
Warning, page contains graphic military video of a barbaric act of another kind.
No, this doesn’t mean I condone the beheading of hostages, if you can believe that.
F. Monster
You can even find references to the existence of homosexual (men) in Al Qur’an if you want to.
There is a lot of literature (poetry and prose) preserved covering the existence and tolerance of homosexual relationships (the so called “boy love”) in the time of Muhammed and thereafter.
And to say it shortly : If the West stops with providing to the Wahabbi a free forum (and this on a frightening wordlwide scale) via the Western umbrella over the House of Saud, Islam of today (more specific Sunni Islam, while Shia Islam is yet an other matter) shall at least be able to find a way to get rid of one of the main obstacles that exist to correct its teachings of the inversions, inventions, Hadith worshipping, incorrect reasonings and twisted interpretations.
Salaam. A
What?
Why don’t you see it that these civilians are getting liberated by the US heros, who clearly enjoy their Liberating Task, furfilled as they are of their rightful mission?
Why don’t you say these people need to be grateful for the presence of the US heros, who put their lives in danger in order to be able to coldbloodly murder these people from a safe distance?
Why do you hate the USA?
Why do you think so many Iraqis do?
Why do you think so many Arabs and other Muslims do?
Why do you think when looking at such images and hearing the US Hero’s comments, even I come close to the point that my emotions want me to leave everthing behind, forget everything and everyone and go overthere and help the occupied to kill the killers and liberate themselves of these US Heros?
How many times do you think some people need to witness these things to actually go overthere and join the resistance?
How many times do you think the Iraqis needed it?
I would say: Vote Bush! It is all you can do to convince the world that you do not support murder but that you do fully support and applaud a mass murderer.
Salaam. A
Just kidding with that title. But all this violence and war and terrorism, no joke, totally sickening.
Well. Nothing new here. F Monster, don’t try to change the subject. Pit your own thing.
Aldebaran, what are you babbling about? ummm…Never mind. I’m not interested in you.
Calm Kiwi: Talking about child abusers, nice anecdote:
A grandfather has been raping his four grand-daughters, ages 3 to 12, for years [the youngest since she was a baby]. Oldest grand-daughter has had enough, goes to the police, semen from the lustly granddaddy is taken, as is DNA. Grandpappy is arrested. Grandmother and her daughter finally dare to confess they knew about it, but were beaten into silence. Guess what the old slime said when led into jail?
“I can’t have done that. I’m a muslim”.
[I don’t recall the catholic creep getting his faith into his crime]
I’m not getting into all the crimes comitted in the name of allah [in the Netherlands]. The list would be too long and frankly, I’m too lazy to type it all. Search for yourself.
One poignant one, to show how young muslims think:
A professor on a high-shool got shot through the head because he didn’t show enough ‘respect’ to one of the students.
The student had disrupted or refused to attend history lessons because the holocaust was discussed. He denied the holocaust.
I’ll make a summary, then I’m done. [for the time being 
]
To save some space here, why don’t you just give links to the posts you made about these same things a few months ago.
By the way, just as a request for information: Do you plan to bring ever something new or are we stuck here with your repetitions of the same for the rest of your membership of this message board.
Salaam. A
I think you picked the wrong side. 
gum: *One poignant one, to show how young muslims think: *
gum, your remarks are getting lamer by the minute. You’re stuck defending an illogical position, and you’ll never really get anywhere with it.
You’re trying to argue that because some Muslims do or say barbaric things, therefore Islam as a whole is responsible for them. When we patiently point out that not all Muslims believe that Islam supports such things, or even that most Muslims don’t believe that Islam supports such things, you simply retreat into claiming that because some Muslims think so, Islam is at fault. You’re stuck in an infinite loop that’s impervious to the influence of logic.
Why aren’t you similarly condemning Christianity on the grounds that most Christians believe homosexuality is immoral?
gum: *Guess what the old slime said when led into jail? “I can’t have done that. I’m a muslim”. [I don’t recall the catholic creep getting his faith into his crime]
*
This is just pathetic in its lack of logic. Don’t you see that what this implies is that Islam condemns sexual abuse of children? “I can’t have done this because of my religion” => “My religion prohibits doing this.”
But in your knee-jerk perspective, the fact that the creep mentioned his (Muslim) religion at all must mean that his religion is responsible for his crime. (You know, there are plenty of Christian child abusers who attempt to deny their guilt in exactly the same way, by saying “I could never have done such a thing because I’m a Christian”. So why aren’t you complaining about how terrible Christianity is?)
You’re simply an anti-Muslim bigot, and you don’t even have grienspace’s merit of being willing to modify your views when they’re contradicted by the facts.
I was just about to ask you for this. Since I know this is a hot button issue on those parts.
Have any of those radical imams ever been convicted of a crime? A civil offense (slander)? Even been arrested? I googled for “imam veroordeeld” and got only this, which was in the U.K.
Regarding radical muslims in the Netherlands in general, I found this, unfortunately, only in Dutch.
That link is an extensive description of law enforcement efforts against terrorism in the Netherlands. My conclusion from that link is that law enforcement is doing an excellent job at preventing and prosecuting terrorism in your country. Heartwarming, actually. In steep contrast to that other little country across the pond. No war crimes, no “enemy combatants”, no patriot act, no guantanamo bay. There really is a right way to deal with terrorism! Thanks for making me find that link.