In the Netherlands, the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh (great-grandson of Vincent Van Gogh’s brother, Theo) has been murdered in the street by an Islamic assassin. The killing was apparently in retaliation for Theo’s film *Submission * which is highly critical of Islam’s treatment of women.
Like many other European countries, the Netherlands has a sizeable and hostile Islamic population which refuses to be assimilated.
The War on Terror is just beginning, kids. And Europe may be in much greater danger than the US.
Actually, I’m sorry for that: in this case, the murderer’s religion clearly is relevant, and my response was inappropriate. As long as we understand that this really is the act of a madman, and not the act of Islam as a whole, I agree that understanding the role religion played in the murder is important.
I know you can’t answer this question, Ringworm, but how is this somehow different than other senseless murders of people who disagree with each other? Just because you so vehemently hate Muslims?
You’re a horribly bigotted individual with a one-track mind.
…ummmm, cite on the “Islamic Mad Dog thingee?” Here’s the Google News page, can’t see it…and what has a seemingly random crime got to do with the war on terror?
Yes, a mad Islamic fundamentalist loon killed a man because of a film. However, the assassin was a fundamentalist loon, and not indicative of the general Muslim population at all. As a Muslim, I am just as appalled by this as anyone else.
Please, do not use the actions of a vocal minority to decry all Muslims. Muslims in Europe are willing to integrate, so long as they can carry on with their own traditions as well. What, pray tell is wrong with that? Why can two cultures not mix?
You’re on: my $20 says that by the end of the first page, we will all have come to an understanding of one another’s positions and will have grown from the experience.
Which one of us gets suspended from the department so he can do his best work despite being a loose cannon? I still haven’t got my badge and gun back from last time, you know.
I should clarify that I’m appalled that anyone would kill someone because of the release of this film. The events portrayed in that film do happen - women are forced into arranged marriages, and are raped, sometimes brutally. However, the film needed to be released, and things like this do need to be brought to the attention of everybody.
Why a lone nut in Middle Eastern dress shooting a film maker is an act of terrorism, I’ll never know. But you know what? It’d be nice to have a week go by without some brainless bigot spouting his hate of Muslims everywhere.
OK…honest question. At what point does “keeping our own traditions” equal “refusing to integrate?” Because I can see some big problems arising with any group emmigrating to a different country and then refusing to adapt to the mores of that country.
I agree. When during the mid-nineties abortion doctors were being terrorized by Christian assassins, I didn’t go around talking about how “The United States has a sizeable and hostile Christian population that refuses to be assimilated.” I talked about how there was a dangerous fringe in Christianity that needed to be repudiated and brought under control.
The actions of Christian assassins don’t reflect on the actions of the vast majority of Christians. The actions of Muslim assassins don’t reflect on the actions of the vast majority of Muslims.
Because it just might make some people afraid to speak out against Islamic Fundies. Someone else may want to speak out and change Islam from within but be afraid, or terrorized, to do so.
In my opinion, ‘following one’s own traditions’ becomes ‘refusing to integrate’ when you get things like people missing important meetings because, say, they happen to occur at a prayer time – the meeting, for work, is just as important as your prayer, but you can ‘make up’ for the missed prayer after the meeting.
However, I don’t think that women wanting to wear a headscarf is a refusal to integrate, its a religious expression. Do people accuse Jewish men of refusing to integrate because of the dress code required by their religion?
The way I’ve been brought up, is that yes, you don’t live in a Muslim country, and so, you must make some changes, but, the important things, like your sense of ethics does not have to change, and so long as you live by the ethics of your faith, its irrelevant as to which country you’re in - you can adapt to the social conventions of that country without compromising your faith.
Minor point - its not Islam per say that needs to be changed – its the West’s perception of Islam, and so long as people start shouting ‘terrorist!’ whenever a Muslim Fundamentalist does something like this, Islam will always be seen as a religion and tool of hate, rather than the religion of peace that it was meant to be. And as long as the cries of ‘terrorist!’ go on, peaceful Muslims, like myself, may as well piss into the wind for all the good we’re doing. It has to be highlighted, continually, that Muslim Fundamentalists are to Islam as Christian Fundamentalists are to Christianity – a loud but vocal minority that gets all the attention and spoils things for everyone else.
Have you not been paying attention to these boards? There is a major fear of fundies and their increasing influence. They are not a fringe. There are millions of them. In fact Bush’s religion is commonly cited as to why he shouldn’t be president.
Compared to the approximately 160 million Christians in the US. So, if we say five million fundamentalists, its still only 3%, even if we say 10 million fundamentalists, its still only 6%. Currently, since Bush is in power, fundies are getting more coverage, and because the President is one of them, they are able to wield more influence than they should be. Vote the fundamentalist President out of power, and they’ll quieten down, I think.
**Banquet Bear ** asks: "…and what has a seemingly random crime got to do with the war on terror?
Answer: Everything.
First of all, it is most certainly not a “random crime.” I can connect the dots if **Banquet Bear **, Yojimbo and others cannot. As tension builds in Europe, Islamic assassins will begin to target non-Muslims who criticize any aspect of Muslim culture or immigration. They will also target Muslims who espouse moderation, accomodation and assimilation. This is a pattern that Islamic terrorists have followed before, mostly notably in Algeria 1955-1962.
And it is the very essence of terror. It is an attempt to intimidate society at large. Zebra, for one, spotted that point immediately. “If you say something bad about us, we will kill you, yes, you.”
To Angua: I am not decrying all Muslims. But I cannot respect them as a group until they pull themselves together and cast out the killers among them. To date, Muslims have been entirely too passive about the whole thing. Either they keep silent or, worse, privately celebrate the killings.
If you say the word “terrorist” to anyone in the world, the odds are about 99% that person is going to visualize a young, Islamic male - quiet, bearded, dark-eyed, murderous. Can Muslims be proud of this?
I am not being an anti-Islamic bigot just by pointing out the obvious.
Theo van Gogh is a casualty of the War on Terror. Case closed.
