Hollands 2-nd political murder in 500 years: director Theo van Gogh shot by muslim

In the Netherlands, the news of the USA-elections been all but pushed from the pages of the leading newspapers by the second political Dutch murder in five hundred years.
Moviemaker and writer Theo van Gogh (allegedly great-grandson of van Goghs brother Theo) was shot and stabbed by an Dutch Islamic extremist.

CNN gives a full story here.

I am so goddamned SAD!

And the worst part is, there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING anyone can do about it! The stupid, medievalminded islamic fundamentalist who shot Van Gogh (and tried to slit his throat) sits smugly in jail, believing herohood and paradise await him. I won’t waste another thought on him; he’s pathological scum, beyond contempt, and utterly lost to reason.

Of all the muslim people in the Netherlands, less then five percent would describe themselves as fundamentalistic. The decent majority has, thank God, for the first time in Dutch history voiced the indignation and horror they too, must feel and they have distanced themselves from this crime.

But the remaining 5 %… What will they do? Who will they kill next? They certainly seem to think killing is a valid way to make a point. How much more anguish and mutual alienation will they cause?

How can we REACH these people?

There already is a thread open on this.

Although that poster opened a lot less levelheaded than yourself.

It’s terrible, and the OP makes an excellent point. But a small nitpick: 3rd such murder; in addition to Pim Fortuyn, don’t forget Oldenbarneveldt.

Good OP Maastricht. It is tragically, heartbreakingly timely that Amsterdam’s Institute for the Study of Islam in the Modern World scheduled its Erasmus Prize conference for today on “Religion and Modernity”, with the following discussions:

There should be some interesting ideas on the roots of the problem of Islamic militant fundamentalism in Europe, and how to address it.

Maastricht: *But the remaining 5 %… What will they do? Who will they kill next? *

We can’t know. We can’t even know that it will be a fundamentalist Muslim who commits the next such outrage; after all, the murderer of Pim Fortuyn was not a Muslim or a foreigner, but an ethnic Dutch animal-rights activist named Volkert van der Graaf. There’s loonies everywhere, sadly.

Not to nitpick, but I thought the murderer was Moroccan?

Either way, what a horrible, ghastly, evil thing to do. Last night we were watching an old interview between Theo and Pim. It gave me the shudders and made me sad to think, these two vibrant humans are both going to be assassinated for their beliefs. Not that I necessarily went along with Pim’s beliefs, but he didn’t deserve what he got.

Not a Godwinization but a question: Murders by the Dutch who collaborated with the Nazis–and Spanish, for that matter–don’t count?

The murderer of Theo Van Gogh has dual Dutch and Moroccan nationality.

Kimstu was referring to the murderer of politician Pim Fortuyn a while back. This Dutch politician was murdered by a Dutch animal rights nutter.

The point he or she was making I believe, is that murdering lunatic tendencies are not restricted to certain nationalities or belief systems.

What about the assassination of William the Silent in Delft in 1584 by a French Catholic fanatic?

Surely that counts as a Dutch political murder in the last 500 years, doesn’t it?

Another thread. And a more sensible OP. I’ll repeat myself:

*Just some more info. [I’m too tired, worried of what may become of my country and too sad to pit anything] *

From: http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3712805

Police arrested eight suspected Islamic radicals as part of investigations into the brutal killing of outspoken Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, Dutch prosecutors said today.

The suspects were detained in the 24 hours following Van Gogh’s killing on Tuesday in an Amsterdam street, said prosecution spokeswoman Dop Kruimel.

Six of the detainees are of Moroccan origin, one is Algerian and the last has dual Spanish-Moroccan nationality, Kruimel said.

He said the suspects, whose identities were not released, had previously been detained and released in an investigation into a potential terrorist threat in October 2003.

“The suspects were detained at a number of residences searched in connection with the Van Gogh investigation. They were previously known to us,” she said.

“As of now only one suspect is being held for Van Gogh’s murder, but the investigation will determine if others may have been connected. All options are still open at this point.”

Five suspects, including a 18-year-old Samir Azzouz, were detained in cities around the Netherlands on October 17, 2003 on suspicion of plotting a terrorist attack.

All were released within two weeks for lack of evidence, but Azzouz was re-arrested in June and now awaits trial on charges of planning a terrorist attack on targets including a nuclear reactor and Amsterdam’s Schiphol Airport.
From: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=6703639
Liberal politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali refugee given Dutch citizenship after fleeing an arranged marriage, worked with Van Gogh on his film about abuse of Muslim women and received a new death threat on Tuesday saying: “You are next.”

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3980371.stm

But this time, there were eyewitness descriptions of the murderer’s traditional Moroccan jallaba.

And then there was the manner in which Van Gogh was killed: his throat was reportedly cut, bringing to mind the words of an angry Muslim only a few months ago that people like Van Gogh who blasphemed against Islam should be “slaughtered like pigs”.

Van Gogh’s last interview:

http://www.peaktalk.com/archives/000848.php
Goat-fuckers vers. open debate 1-0. I guess they got their “writing restriction” afterall, politics by other means and all that. Van Gogh was a brave man, even though he received death threats he declined all offers of protection from the Dutch police. It seems it takes a brave man to public criticize Islam these years. I suspect that’s the main goal of the terrorist goat-fuckers too. However if they kill off and silence with self-censure all the moderate Islamic critics, soon they’re left with the fanatic Islam critics.

Here’s Theo Van Gogh’s home page. http://www.theovangogh.nl/

8 Suspected Muslim Extremists Arrested In Filmmaker’s Death: http://www.thekcrachannel.com/news/3887107/detail.html

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the woman Van Gogh made his last movie with has more prudently gone in hiding.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3322399.stm

So we’ve finally come to the point where the things you say in public debate in Europe gets you killed just as death as they do in Somalia.

Here she talks about the movie they made: http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Temp/Temp-NakedTruthInDutchin%20HollowLand-Andy.htm

Here it can be downloaded: http://www.pipp.nl/downloadpro/download.php?file=0

Here Irshad Manji author of The Trouble with Islam speaks: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20041102-032633-5233r

Rune: So we’ve finally come to the point where the things you say in public debate in Europe gets you killed just as death as they do in Somalia.

Hadn’t we already come to that point when Volkert van de Graaf murdered Pim Fortuyn?

There’s no question that the threat and social burden of violent extremist Islam are very serious. But as any Oklahoman could tell you, you can be killed just as dead for the sake of making a political point by the homegrown Western loony as by the foreign uber-Islamist nutjob.

Insult the religious-conservative and they will fight back fiercely.

Perhaps, but I see no consistent policy behind his assassination. No ideologue and no base to follow up. Fortuyn’s murder came to me as a lighting from a clear blue sky. An animal activist murdering a politician?! Never heard of it, don’t expect I ever will again. I’m not the slightest worried that should I make book or movie critical of animals or in favour of seal hunting or some such things, that I should be murdered by another animal activist. However if I ever intended to make a book or a movie critical of Islam I’d take measures to protect my family and myself beforehand, because I would be more than a little worried about the consequences.

The Oklahoman bomber has no parallel in Europe, his policies were strictly American, nor do we have those abortion bombers. I fail to see a single other group with the means and will to carry out such a campaign of murder and terror as the extremist Moslems. Does there exist a single violent Christian group in Europe? Jewish? Buddhist? New-Age? The thought seem almost absurd. The closest seem to be some Nazi fringe groups. But really, they’re marginalized and ridiculed and almost without influence, which only relevance seems to be that they serve as excellent examples to trot out when someone wants to make a point about the bigoted white Europeans. Meanwhile there hasn’t been a single Nazi murder here since 1945 – has there in the Netherlands? You wear a David start or skull cap and walk down the street in Copenhagen, I tell you, you better look out and it’s not Nazis you should worry about.

Rune: No ideologue and no base to follow up. Fortuyn’s murder came to me as a lighting from a clear blue sky. An animal activist murdering a politician?! Never heard of it, don’t expect I ever will again.

Well, that seems to be saying that political hate-crime murders are only a matter of concern if they’re committed by people with a “base”. I’m not denying that the threat of Islamist-extremist violence is serious and to some extent systemic; I just think you’re too lightly dismissing the problem of other kinds of politically-motivated murder. Political assassination in Northern Ireland and the Basque region of Spain is nothing new, of course; and radical leftists assassinated Italy’s Marco Biagi in 2002. Exclusively focusing on “alien” threats, real and serious though they may be, can lead to failing to spot other dangers.

cough Religious: Provisional IRA, Ulster Defense Association, Orange Volunteers. Secular: Bader-Meinhof Gang, Red Brigade, Red Army Faction, Basque Separatists, 17 November. Both lists go on. Quit acting like Europeans are so fucking superior to Americans. They ain’t.

There are the animal rights nutcases in England, who have engaged in a campaign of terrorism for years. They haven’t killed anyone, yet. The latest incident:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/staffordshire/3735042.stm

Well, I’ve calmed down a bit. Polycarp, Kimstu and chukhung, you haven’t been nitpicking. Actually, you have made a vital point. There have been, indeed, more political murders in Holland in the last 500 years. Not just the ones on Pim Fortuyn, and the one Willem the Silent. Actually, there’s quite a pattern.

And then there’s also the murders on Johan van Oldebarneveldt and the brothers De Witt. The hijacking of a train by Ambonese terrorists in the 1970’s, resulting in many casualties. The kidnapping of Gerrit Jan Heijn in the early 1990’s, that wasn’t just doen for financial gain, but had a lot of envy and resentment behind it. The attack on ultra-rightwing leader Janmaat, that left his wife wheelchair bound. The bombing of secretary of state Aad Kosto. All incidents are different, but still, it is a lot of political violence for a country that otherwise prides itself on its low violent-crime-rate. So where does this pattern emerge?

Holland is a country of myriad interest groups, unions, clubs, networks, action groups, churches and political parties. We have at least 20 political parties every year, and at least 8 established ones, where the USA has 4 at most. The average Dutch person is a paying member of at least 15 groups with an Opinion .**)

All these Dutch groups constantly bicker. Fiercely. Vehemently. But verbally. Both with each other and amongst themselves.
As I said, this bickering can become quite fierce. In a country with so much wealth, people have time to argue. It is, after all, a luxury to get worked up about Ideas and Identities.*) Usually the mutual hatred is too abstract to become personal, to become focused. You can hate the commies or the liberals, but you wouldn’t know where to start in eradicating them.

But sometimes, a man or woman steps forward. A New Person. Usually an outsider, not a member of one of the existing groups. With a strong opinion, strong charisma, a lot of ambition, strong verbal skills, strategic skills, and most importantly: no fear of antagonizing others. Courageous, if you like. His charisma is sometimes unintentional; there’s the appeal of the village idiot, the appeal of the Fool. Janmaat was a village idiot, and Pim Fortuyn and van Gogh qualified, at times, as Fools. (Fortuyn had his butler and his two fluffy lapdogs in tow; van Gogh posed as an fat obnoxious dirty cherub, beerbelly hanging from his loincloth, in his own TV-dating show).

New Persons have the talent to make their arguments seem alluring, reasonable, en vogue, clear. They are constant in the news, people discuss them. They create issues, new rifts, a new balance of power.
Pim Fortuin was the prime example, van Gogh was one, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Willem the Silent, even Janmaat, in a way. ***).

The result is that within existing groups, panic takes hold. The balance of power appears to be shifting. The opposite group has an unfair advantage in the New Person, a secret weapon! Within the group, there is talk of how much we hate that person, how dangerous he is to our good cause, how he lies and cheats and manipulates. He MUST be cheating and lying, otherwise he wouldn’t seem right. There is no way he CAN actually be right? Because WE were right !? Right?
In short, The New Person is evil and dangerous. He doesn’t play by the rules. He corrupts the innocent and may seem appealing to those who are dumb enough not the see that WE are right. (“Right?” “Yeah, fucking right there bro!”). Usually, much talk of “what if somebody shot Hitler in 1938” ensues.
But within a typical Dutch group, everybody leaves it at that. They might get worked up within themselves, sidetracked, arguing fiercely amongst themselves about why, exactly the guy is dangerous and why, exactly, he’s wrong, and if he should be stoned or just hanged, but that’s about it. The worst thing the group will do is print a political caricature, or draft an hateful song.

But within some groups there will be a silent, serious guy. A Quiet Guy. He has heard about the evilness of the person, and that has struck a chord in his heart. The Cause is his identity; he has had enough brushes with the enemy to hate them fiercely, but not enough to see they are humans like himself; and he hasn’t got much to live for outside the cause.
The Quiet Guy sees it all to clearly: the loudmouthed people in his group may have seen the danger, but they will do nothing about it. They are useless. He, our Quiet Guy, may not be a talker, and he may not be very popular, but he will be the one who DOES something. A private nature ensures our Quiet Guy will go about his preparations alone, unchecked and uncorrected by his peers. His private nature is strengthened by a mixture of pride (“I’m doing this alone!”) and insecurity (“if I tell somebody, they will tell me not to do it, or they will take it from my hands, or they will point out flaws in it and then I have to defend myself against them and I can’t do that because I don’t stand a chance against those loudmouths, I never have”).
And if our Quiet Guy has done it right, and has been able to lay his hands on a gun, his mission will succeed. And the new Person will lay on the ground, dead, while the camera’s are flashing.
And all the groups he belonged to will be genuinely shocked and feel, and say: well, New Person WAS a scumbag, but he didn’t deserve this, this is terrible.

The Quiet Guy has been named Mohammed B, Volkert van der Graaf, Balthazar and in a way, Osama Bin Laden. Is he a nut? Yes and no. Not in the cold efficiency by which he did what he did; not in his idea’s; he is only nutty in the length he will go for his idea’s.

There is a genuine problem with the integration of Islamic immigrants in the Netherlands, and there will be for one or two generations more. But the shooting of van Gogh (and the subsequent outrage amongst the other Dutch Muslims) proves, if anything, how well that integration is underway.

This week, we have witnessed a very Dutch, very typical Dutch political murder, I think.

:frowning:

*) Struggles about economics are usually more practical, and they are also shorter, with a clear outcome; we got the vote and we got half the raise.
**) This in stark contrast to most Islamic countries, where the strongest and best organized level of organization is the family, with above it a large void without checks and balances, and above that void the (religious) government - or tyrant.)
***) Lesser examples are (or were) Wiegel, Peter R. de Vries, Bolkenstein. But they were/are less antagonizing

Why do you call it a hate-crime murder? It’s a religious and/or political murder. Yes I think the murders committed by religious communities or political groups are very much worse than those committed by a lone nutcase or inspired by personal motives like avarice or jealousy or whatever, since they, besides the murder, include the tacit threat to everybody else to not do as the person killed, or else they may be next. I may be personally overly focused on Islamic threats to free speech. I was living in London at the time and quite haplessly caught up in the madness surrounding the threats to Salman Rushdie and the massive and very threatening demonstrations. It has gone some way to form my views, and I have never forgotten and probably not forgiven what seemed to me much more than a small fringe group of extremist Moslems.

Even so I think it’s no unreasoable to say that Islamic terrorism in Europe is more troubling than localized regional terrorism of the Basque and IRA kind and the extremist leftist organizations. For several reasons, we have little to fear that the regional conflict ever spread outside their own region to the whole of Europe, further these organizations are in the end ruled by reason and a kind of bargain can struck with them – not so with religious fanatics. Communism is all but dead and so are the communistic terrorists. Communistic terrorists also always had to moderate their actions since they in the end put their faith in mobilizing the common workers and they knew excessive violence would alienate them. Islamic terrorists have no such compulsions, since non-believers means nothing to them and they actively seek a confrontation of civilization kind of conflict. There have been threats for many years, and I expect these murders to merely the first of many of what in the end, and already has, resulted in an insidious form of self-censure and fear of tackling certain problems that is more damaging to democracy and freedom than the spectacular terrorists actions like 9/11 and the Madrid bombings.

Umm… I was replying to the Okalahoma bomber. As far as I know his motives had something to do with revenge for Waco, gunlaws and encroachment on state freedom or some such thing. Don’t know much about it, but I doubt he has a parallel in Europe. I just meant to illustrate that it’s not readily evident that American experiences with homegrown political murder and terrorism can be used in Europe. European superiority has nothing to do with it (that we are superiour goes without saying naturally).

Despite the catholic / protestant divide, I don’t think religion was a big motivator for the struggle in northern Ireland, it was/is a regular difference over nationhood. The left-extremists terror-organizations of the 70’s are all but a thing of the past. The Italian murder in 2002 does not signify a revitalization, more like the last spasm before death.

You would be in the UK. There have been bombings, murders, vandalism, house burnings, physical assaults, and the latest atrocity is the grave-robbing of the corpse of a relative of a vivisectionist. My friend’s father was a pharmaceutical researcher who had to be issued with a mirror-on-a-pole to check for car bombs. It is a violent ideology, and may spread to the Netherlands.

The OP is far more credible than the other thread, condemning the perpetrator and sensibly addressing the actual problem. I agree with the sentiments therein.

Correct. Religion is a good indicator as to what side the person is on but the reasons for the conflict are political not religious. In fact a lot of the IRA would be atheistic left wingers.