Hollands 2-nd political murder in 500 years: director Theo van Gogh shot by muslim

The BBQ Pit
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Maastricht, As much as I want to, I can’t agree with your sweet "Quiet Guy’ theory.

Muhammed B. has some serious connections with terrorists.

From: http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=615513&section=news

Dutch probe Casablanca link to filmmaker death
Thu 4 November, 2004 14:13

By Marcel Michelson

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Dutch authorities are investigating a possible indirect link between the suspected killer of a filmmaker critical of Islam and last year’s Casablanca bombings, a security source says.

The source confirmed a report in the Algemeen Dagblad daily that the suspect, identified by Dutch media as Mohammed B., had connections with people who were questioned after the May 2003 suicide bombings in the Moroccan city which killed 45.

Filmmaker Theo van Gogh was repeatedly stabbed after he was shot as he cycled to work in Amsterdam. His throat was slit and a five-page letter suggesting a “radical Islamic” motive was pinned to his body with a knife.

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It’s sometimes hard to separate the nutcases from the group. For instance,

You were in no real danger from almost all of those people, who were merely caught up in the moment, yet you felt threatened by all because you could not pick the “lone nuts” out of the herd because they were both herd members and nutcases.

Why not? How does the Militia Movement in the US differ from the extremist Right Wing groups in Europe? They are all neo-fascist if not neo-Nazi and include in their core their beliefs rascism, anti-semitism, and a desire to replace, if not overthrow, the existing governmental structure.

You’d best not say that too loudly or Big Bad George will come and show you who’s boss. :wink:

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From Moroccan teens 'spit' on Van Gogh portrait - Expat Guide to the Netherlands | Expatica
Moroccan teens ‘spit’ on Van Gogh portrait

4 November 2004

AMSTERDAM — Moroccan teenagers have allegedly spat on a large portrait of murdered Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam, it was reported Thursday.

Shortly after Van Gogh’s murder on Tuesday, spray can and graffiti artist Donovan Spaanstra, 33, painted a portrait of the Dutch television celebrity and columnist on the façade of a building in the Warmoesstraat.

“For an artist, from an artist. Van Gogh has walked past here thousands of times,” Spaanstra told newspaper De Telegraaf.
Initially greeted by applause for painting the portrait, Spaanstra claimed some Moroccan teens then hassled him, screaming “Hamas, Hamas”. He claimed they even spat on the portrait and did not want to discuss the killing.

Well. Thanks for that. :frowning:

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My problem with the Rushdie demonstration (and the talk in in the city, etc.) was not that I felt personally threatened but that its extend and size refuted the claim that those extremist sentiments were just shared by a small fringe group of Moslem nut cases and fundamentalists but that they on the contrary enjoyed widespread support in the mass of what should have been normal and well integrated Moslems. I wasn’t personally threatened but democracy and freedom of speech was though. I wonder how many authors and directors have refrained from speaking critical of Islam or even addressing the subject at all in the years since. If Rushdie was the only such case it would have mattered less, however Rushdie and now Van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are just a few of the victims of attempts by Moslems to silence critical voices by threats or violence. And this is a serious problem.

How widespread support does Van Gogh’s murders enjoy? Well I don’t know. Certainly there have been no massive demonstration to protest it the likes I saw in London calling for the slaughter of Rushide. The official condemnation by Moslem organizations has been less than equivocal (something about the whole of Dutch society bearing responsibility. Wrong! The fundamentalist interpretation of Islam bears sole responsibility. The rest of liberal Dutch society is absolutely blameless) Here’s some Moroccans and chanting “Hamas Hamas” and spitting on an image of Van Gogh raised after his death: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraaf.nl%2Fbinnenland%2F15329121%2FMarokkanen_spugen_op_portret_Van_Gogh.html&lp=nl_en

I don’t know much about the American militias, they just seem very alien to me. Aren’t they into liberalism (minimal government) and all about liberal gun-laws and Christ and such. The extreme right in Europe is traditionally very anti-American. They’re also big government and I don’t think free gun laws figure very predominantly anywhere nor Christendom.

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Oh, shit.

I was just in the other thread blaming ‘De Telegraaf’. Seems that paper has it correct. Photos don’t lie.

Thanks for that link, Rune. I was starting to be PC all over again.

WTG, muslim motherfuckers. AND I MEAN THOSE THAT SMEARED VAN GOGH’S PAINTING.

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Just saw this, this looks promising:

Though I’m far from sure this is a matter that can be resolved in a courtroom.

WTF?! Urging killing of pregnant women and their unborn babies because of what they might someday grow up to become?! First I heard of that particular sickness. “We cannot let such dangerous nonsense to pass as Islam” Indeed.

Terrible thing Gum. I think I’ve read you have a gallery, did you know him personally?

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[quote=Rune]
I fail to see a single other group with the means and will to carry out such a campaign of murder and terror as the extremist Moslems. Does there exist a single violent Christian group in Europe? Jewish? Buddhist? New-Age? The thought seem almost absurd.[/quote[
What about AUM Shinrikyu? Not only did they carry out the subway sarin attacks, they murdered and kidnapped many lawyers, journalists and families of the above in their campaign.

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Yes. I’m sorry I was being Eurocentric. I was thinking about groups in Europe. But I see they have some really whacky animal rights fanatics in Britain I didn’t know about (at least not the extend of their extremism).

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Rune, Thank you. No. I didn’t know him. I didn’t even like him much. He had the habit of insulting everyone. Anti-smokers, Jews, Our royalty, Christians and muslims.

He wasn’t killed by a healthy person or a Jew or one of our daft princes or a priest or a minister, though. He was killed by a muslim.

Latest news:

The letters [5 pages] that the motherfucking murderer stuck with a knife in van Gogh’s stomach was a threat to all non-believers of the Islam and one open letter to Ayaan Hirsi Ali to tell her she would be next. [I’ll link a.s.a.p.]

He also carried a suicide note with him in which he said he was willing to die as a martyr.

The police shot him in his leg.

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Maastricht: There have been, indeed, more political murders in Holland in the last 500 years. Not just the ones on Pim Fortuyn, and the one Willem the Silent. […]

Maastricht, that was a profound and enlightening post. I think that post all by itself taught me as much about the Netherlands as everything else I’ve picked up during the two months I’ve now lived here. Thank you.

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From http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=13656&name=Prosecutor’s+anger+over+release+of+letters
The letter left with Van Gogh’s body contained a direct threat to anti-Islamic MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The Liberal VVD parliamentary leader, Jozias van Aartsen, and Amsterdam Mayor Job Cohen was also mentioned in the letter.

But the letter also contained anti-Semitic statements and threatened the Netherlands, Europe and US with destruction. A second letter — found with the suspect — was a suicide note.

Van Gogh was shot and stabbed to death on an Amsterdam street on Tuesday, and a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan suspect was arrested after a shootout with police. Public outrage has engulfed the Netherlands.

Experts claim the style of the letter threatening Hirsi Ali with death indicates that it originates from a radical Muslim organisation with close ties to terror organisations.

Meanwhile, Van Aartsen said the letters indicated that the Netherlands was in the grip of a holy war of Jihad and urged for more intensive surveillance of a greater number of Islamic extremists, requiring an expansion of the intelligence services. At present, the AIVD is monitoring 150 extremists in the Netherlands.

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In my opinion this is also very much encouraged by the media.

Their appeal or “charisma” or what I would call “exentrism” is very much constructed, build up encouraged and entertained by the media.
Like you said; they seem to be constant in “the news” somewhere in the media.

Your description of what you call The Quiet Guy is also typical for such groups.

You are not quite correct to place Bin Laden among the typical “Quiet Guy” and as it seems to be when following some of the news channels and reading some Dutch online papers, I am not sure if we can place this Mohammed B. still in that category.
As I came to understand today the intelligenge service in The Netherlands had at least 4 different reports on him coming from inside and outside the country. There was a lack of personel and a lack of coopertation between different departments/police etc… to be able to connect the dots. Comes with that that there is a lack of people who understand Arabic to be albe to translate intersting leeds to discovere in time this sort of threats.

I have some doubts about the generalising tone in this statement.

The same counts for this.

In my opinion it proves quite a few things:

  1. There is most certainly a lot of “integration” of immigrants from Muslim background, and don’t forget that the Muslims who were born in The Netherlands are Dtuch just like every other Dutch citizens. Of course they are shocked and feel the same outrage as every other normal citizen in a normal country when somehing like this happens. (Using the term “integration” when talking about fellow citizens is extremely denigrating and patronizing.)
  2. The murderer was born in The Netherlands and it seems that he did some studies at higher education level. Which is also a proof of this so called “integration”.
  3. Despite these facts: a) being born as a Dutch citizen and b) having received the same education as any other Dutch citizen of his age can receive, there went something extremely wrong.

So what went wrong?
I can tell you what goes wrong in every Western nation that I know of:

  1. The lack of interest in the past for screening raging lunatics who abuse the soft immigration policies of certain Western countries (if not of all of them)
  2. The help for this idiocy from the so called “Human Rights” idiots who make that such dangerous elements, previously arrested and locked up in their country of origin because of their activities and ideas, not only get out of jail, but next run off to the comatose West and get asielment and even citizenship because they are “politically persecuted” poor innocents.
  3. The lack of interest of governments in the West to actually take a look at what these idiots came to do recrute for their cause the young Muslims and especially those born in the West.
  4. The lack of actions undertaken by Western governments once they do notice these lunatics. For example like the idiot who even got a book printed and distributed in which women must be stoned and homosexuals must be thrown from a tower or whatever idiocy he sells as being “The way of the Muslim” (I think that is the title of this piece of Lunatic Art)
  5. The stupid system of “double nationality”.
  6. The private schools that escape government control.
  7. The fact that mosques escape completely government control. In the days we live now, control over what some self declared Imam or one that is “send” by the Homeland - and in many cases directly or indirectly backed and inspired by the lunatic Wahhabis- should one of the top priorities of every self-respecting law system.

I can go on for a few hours.
Salaam. A

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From http://www.xposed.com/headline_news/52_ds_1190458.aspx

Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner said Thursday the note, stuck to the body with a knife, contained a “direct warning” to the screenwriter, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born member of parliament who has outraged fellow Muslims by criticizing Islamic customs and the failure of Muslim families to adopt Dutch ways. She had been under police protection before the slaying.

Donner said the way the five-page letter “was presented indicates that it is not from one person, but a movement.” It was neatly typed and written in Dutch and Arabic. A testament found in the suspect’s pocket was titled “Drenched in blood” and “these are my last words.” *

The letter is titled “Open Letter to Hirsi Ali” and threatens a holy war against infidels, America, Europe, the Netherlands and Hirsi Ali. “Saifu Deen alMuwahhied,” or “the unifying sword of religion” is written at the bottom of the last page, apparently as a signature.

“It is worrying because it gives the impression it is not the message of an individual, but a wider organization,” Donner said. Security has been increased for individuals considered possible targets, including Hirsi Ali and members of her party, he said.

The letter read that Islam would “be victorious through the blood of martyrs.” It contained apparent quotes from the Quran, and verses of poetry. “Only the death will separate the truth from the lies,” it said

&

From http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/10101861.htm

The threat left by Van Gogh’s killer carries the ideology of a fundamentalist movement, Takfir wal Hijra or “Repentance and Flight,” which advocates isolation from what it calls the sinful world, Dutch media reported.

The letter, in Dutch and Arabic, predicts the downfall of the “infidel enemies of Islam” in Europe, including the Netherlands, and the United States.

“I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down,” it said.

The letter also asserted: “It is a fact that Dutch politics is dominated by many Jews.”

“What do you think of the fact that there is a Jew in power in Amsterdam?” it said, referring to Amsterdam’s Mayor Job Cohen.

*The killer was shot in the leg. He’s fine. :rolleyes:

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This is from the guestbook of Islam Online

http://www.islamonline.net/guestbook/English/browseguestbookresult.asp
The Islam-critical Dutch film maker Van Gogh assassinated by a Moroccan fanatic some days ago is not the first, and will not be the last victim of Islam in the western world. Once again the “Religion of Peace” shows its true colors.

Europe needs to open its eyes and take care of the cancer growing in its mist. No, I’m not talking about killing or repression - all we have to do is be honest and speak out against Islamic ideology.

The fact is that Islam is not, and never was tolerant. What Muslims mean when they say their faith is “tolerant” is that they will not kill you if you submit and be quiet and accept to be a third class citizen as a Christian or Jew living under Islamic rule. If you criticize their culture, their religion or the murderer+slaver+pedophile they follow you could get killed – even outside the Islamic world as we have now seen. Shame on Islam!

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gum, what exactly was the point of posting that guestbook entry (by a visitor with the username “Anti-Islamic”, no less)? We already know that there are plenty of vocal “Anti-Islamic” people who enjoy calling Muhammad a pedophile.

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Sorry, that name was “Anti-Islamist”.

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And didn’t Oldenbarneveldt have a brother who was assassinated at about the same time? If it wasn’t him, I seem to remember from my Dutch history some pair of brothers that were basically lynched for political reasons sometime in the 16th or 17th century.

Surely Fortuyn, Oldenbarneveldt and Van Gogh aren’t the only three…

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Originally posted by Kimstu

He said it better than I ever can. &

Yes I know. Like muslims enjoy calling unbelievers ‘swine’ and Jewish people ‘apes’.

From http://www.zachtei.nl/2004/11/04/000417.html

Update 23.00: according to Dutch PBS, even several experienced journalists were shocked by the contents of the letter, which was written in excellent Dutch. This further compounds the theory that the murderer radicalized in the Netherlands, and not in a distant poor Middle Eastern dictatorship. He was one of us, before his mind got poisoned by radicalism. Very few people have dared to suggest that the murderer was a victim of terrible circumstances that drove him to his act. However, since it’s now obvious that he was well educated and led a normal life before he radicalized, these excuses can now be disqualified permanently. He even was a well known and loved volunteer in his neighbourhood. This radical Islamist, at least, didn’t get driven into anything. He wasn’t a victim - he chose this course of action

From Home | The Scotsman
It prides itself on being the beating liberal heart of Europe, but the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh has convinced many in the Netherlands that the nation’s legendary tolerance has now reached its limit.

Van Gogh’s execution last Tuesday, which has been linked to Islamic extremists, has brought calls for a crackdown on fundamentalists and renegade preachers that would previously have been unthinkable.

Once liberal commentators now want Muslim hardliners to be thrown out of the country, even if they have Dutch passports, and greater surveillance of the wider Islamic community.

Meanwhile, one of the biggest Muslim populations in Western Europe is fearful of being tarred with the extremist brush by a nation which increasingly feels it is being taken advantage of.

This is exactly how we feel. We’ve reached our limit and we’ve been taken advantage of in a big way.

Not by some ‘victim’
Btw: There’s talk of closing down the El Tawheed mosque in Amsterdam. That’s one of the mosques where they teach muslims to throw homo-sexuals off high buildings, hit your wife and have your daughter’s clitoris removed.

It will be hard to close the mosque because of our laws. But it will be done.
It would have been reasuring for the Dutch and a comfort for Theo van Gogh’s family – especially his young son – if the muslim community would stop going to the El Tawheed mosque. [there are plenty of others in A’dam]
But do they? Ofcourse not. They don’t care.
Yes, there have been protests from some muslims.
There even was an open letter to the murderer, written by a muslim, in which he accused the terrorist of having a fairly easy time in jail, while he was being looked at askance. *[That happens now, yes. There was a fire in another mosque. Probably arson. To tell the truth: I’m surprised nothing worse has happened] *
You see:
Not one word of regret from muslims. Just self-pity.

Oh, Kimstu, I’d really appreciate it if you keep your dusty book comments to yourself.
It has nothing to do with the real world. **Kimstu:“Ooooo, Jiminy Cricket! There’s a real world?” **
Yes there is, Kimstu. This world - my world - here and now, where we used to have plenty of overly PC talkers just like you. They’ve all retracted. So should you.
You’ve lost all credibility.

Gum. Who still works [as a volunteer] for the Blijf van m’n lijf huis (Shelter for battered women)

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gum, I’m the one who’s been saying that Islamist-extremist violence is indeed hateful, dangerous, and repellent, but that we should not tar all Muslims with the Islamist-extremist brush.

You’re the one who’s been saying things like “muslims [no qualifier] enjoy calling unbelievers ‘swine’ and Jewish people ‘apes’”.

I don’t think I’m the one who’s “lost credibility” here.

I haven’t been defending violent Muslim fundamentalism, or any of the crimes committed in its name, nor am I necessarily opposed to greater restrictions on inflammatory Muslim hardliners. All I’ve been doing is pointing out that it’s unfair to blame all Muslims for what violent Muslim extremists do. Are you really trying to argue against that?

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posted by Kimstu

Ofcourse not, you twat. Are you blind as well as stupid?

I’ve never mentioned all muslims. I fucking work for battered muslim women. You are the one that gives a vague word of: “Sorry for the terrorist, but muslims are real, real sweet people, you know” *pat pat pat *

I’m sick of your sort. You and all the rest of the pathetic PC people are guilty as well of this murder. You are the ones that gave this muslim the idea he was doing good. He’s just a poor muslim, right?
WRONG, you dumbo.

He wasn’t poor, he wasn’t a victim. He’s a filthy murderous GOATFUCKER [thank you, Theo] and your “tut tut tut” won’t change a thing about it.

NB: could you find another term for: “not tar all Muslims with the Islamist-extremist brush”. It’s getting very stale