Thanks, that’s nice to know.
Sounds really cool, thanks for describing it.
Sure. But that’s not the subject at hand.
This is not about a black person merely describing or complaining about their mistreatment at the hands of whites or historical mistreatment. This is about words or acts of hatred or discrimination against whites. It’s not racist or hateful for a black person to tell a white person that she’s experienced racism. But that’s entirely different from a black person calling an innocent white person, or all white people, racial slurs, or discriminating against whites, or committing a racially-motivated hate crime against whites, or whatever.
Again, that’s not the scenario I’m objecting to. I’m talking about when a black person DOES come out and say “you’re all like that!” I’m talking about overt racial judgements, not just me jumping to conclusions.
For example, you’re talking about a conversation like this:
“I’ve taken some shit from white people.”
“We’re not all like that.”
“I know, I didn’t say that, would you just listen please?”
Your advice about avoiding that kind of response is good. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a conversation that starts like this:
“You and all white people are all the same - a bunch of cracker assholes who hate black folks.”
That’s a little different. That’s not just complaints about suffering from racism, that’s more racism. I have a problem with that. Don’t you?
Okay. Let me be clear and honest here: I am rather exasperated and irritated that your reply to me ignores the very first thing I wrote in that post:
I spent a lot of my free time writing my replies and getting points and links/references for the future posts that would enable me to, as I first posted, “discuss this a bit with you so you could perhaps understand why your position is considered problematic”. Look at the time stamps between posts 217 and 218.
My goal was to start discussing some general background, “big picture” information and questions so that there will be a shared foundation when I DO start talking about this thread specifically. Why? Because my part in our discussion is to answer the question, “why did [multiple posters] find my/lance’s argument problematic?” The answer is far more complex and nuanced than you realize, and if you aren’t willing to actually listen to the “big picture” information first, I guarantee you will not understand that answer.
My evidence for that is this thread (yes, now I am specifically talking about this thread). Every poster you were arguing with, aside from Pit-style insults and flaming and some of Yog’s audacious and intentionally provocative points, gave you the answer. In several different ways, even. But you currently lack the necessary background information to understand that answer.
It’s like my undergrad seminar on WWI & WWII, which started in mid-1860s Europe and didn’t actually reach WWI until 7 weeks into a 16 week course. Why? Because in order to really and truly understand why WWI started, all of that “big picture” background information was essential. In this analogy, your position would be someone insisting that WWI began because the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was assassinated. Meanwhile, everyone who took that seminar would be frustrated as all get out because that was merely the straw that broke the camel’s back; the actual causes for WWI were the long series of events in the half century leading up to the war. The assassination is an overly simplified reason given in high school history because no one has the time to properly cover late 19th century European politics.
I’m trying to discuss that prior 50 years so you can then understand the multiple, complex factors that caused WWI. And I only covered maybe the first 5 years of that. And then you snip and ignore almost all of my reply to tell me that that’s not relevant, because you’re talking about Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
LOL, this is fucking classic. Lance I gotta hand it to ya man, if you can take a nice guy like zweisamkeit and break him down to the point of exasperation with your willful stupidity, that’s a dedication to ignorance that I have never seen before.
Good job sir. At least you’re the best at something.
Has anyone checked whether lance is actually the return of Diogenes? Because this whole “I’m going to take a reasonable position, reduce it to black-and-white [sic] terms and take it to a extreme and then refuse to budge even when the entire board tells me I’m wrong” style is awfully familiar.
You keep insisting urgently and insulting that I’m wrong, yet you never manage to actually explain why. You just throw out insults.
That kind of crap doesn’t work on me, son.
Hey, I don’t mind that, but it appeared to me that you were doing more than giving me background.
But you haden’t explained why my position is problematic because you haven’t discussed my position yet.
I fully agree with everything you’ve said so far. I agree that it’s a good idea to let people express their frustration with racism without taking it personally or saying things like “we’re not all like that.” But that’s not what I was talking about.
If you’re not done giving me your background, that’s fine. But it seemed like you were done. If you want to just let me know what’s next, I’m happy with that.
That’s fine. It wasn’t clear that you were addressing my point. It appeared you were addressing a different one. I’ll be happy to continue to listen.
I’m happy for you to try to give me the answer instead. Please continue.
Aside from the fact that you assume that I don’t already know anything about any of this already (I did tell you I am not that young, grew up in the South, had progressive parents who strongly opposed racism, etc.), which I’m willing to overlook, you didn’t just provide your background information, you gave me reccommendation (“don’t do that”) that sounded like you were done talking, and that this was your reason for saying I was wrong. That’s why I responded by saying you had missed the point.
Again, I appreciate your polite discussion and willingness to actually support your arguments, and I’m happy to continue to listen – as long as we’re clear about what you are trying to convince me of: that it is acceptable for blacks or other minorities to commit racist or racially-motivated acts or slurs against whites, but not for whites to do that. I’m fully prepared to discuss this with you. Just give me more information about why you’re bringing up different points and what parts are part of your argument, etc. That would help.
Please carry on.
That’s not what I did.
I responded to ANOTHER POSTER who took an extreme, unreasonable position.
The idea that it’s perfectly okay for blacks to be racist against whites is absurd. It’s completely illogical too. It’s also not a policy that is going to lead to progress.
Just wanted to pop back up and throw out a question. Hey lance, do you think Black History Month or the existence of BET demonstrates/encourages racism?
What do you feel about a hypothetical White History Month or a White people channel?
No, nor do I consider to be racism against whites.
We already have Fox News.
My post was eaten, dammit!
I posted to say that I run in some of the same academic circles as MHP; in fact I was at a retreat at Princeton with her 2 years ago. I have a co-author and colleague who was on her show, so I have some knowledge of how the show runs. I think she’s pretty bright and witty, and I’m predisposed to taking her side (lisp and forehead nonwithstanding - I think her braids are too tight!).
That said, it was insensitive and bordering on cruel to single out that little boy. Actually, that’s more of the fault of her guest, who should apologize as well. I’m not sure what the point of having the picture there was aside from making fun of the Romney family in some way. Problem is, they’re not really in the political spotlight any more, and the target was a little kid who didn’t go on the campaign trail and say dumb stuff, etc. The apology from MHP seemed sincere and appropriate. So it seems resolved to me, especially considering that Mitt accepted the apology.
It wasn’t racist and certainly not a fireable offense. She screwed up and apologized. It is possible to make a poor judgment call and not be shitcanned because of it, especially if you have a generally good record of doing and saying the right, respectful thing most of the time.
Why not? Its a channel/month dedicated specifically to a racial group, singling them out for honor. Plus, an equivalent channel/month would most likely be protested as racism and not just unnecessary
True, but all snarkiness aside, if such a thing were being proposed, what would be your reaction?
completely different having a channel, month or whatever other venue to celebrate a certain group of people and thinking you have the right to go around verbally or physically assaulting innocents because you’re angry about being discriminated …
I’m a little thrown off by how lance is being attacked on this issue ? …
his stance seems very reasonable … all he’s saying is no one has the right to be ‘racist’ and especially to innocents … I’m not getting why everyone is so outraged by that ? … how can you disagree with that in any way ? …
yet no one has said anything at all to someone like yog who’s saying that he/she is justififed in attacking innocents … almost agreeing with that person … pretty ridiculous imo
Lance keeps insisting that we all think racism is perfectly acceptable from blacks. That is not at all what we’ve been saying. (Yog went off on a tangent about whites deserving racism or some such but that was an anomaly) Racism, as described in the OP, is nowhere near as bad if a white person had done it. This is especially true when you examine the type of person MHP is. One who has devoted her whole life towards fighting racial inequality.
Not to get dragged back into the discussion, but my contention is that no one is truly innocent. People who claim to be so often profit on the backs of minorities in the past, refuse to acknowledge or renounce it, or continue to profit from institutionalized racism in the present. To claim you’re innocent just because you weren’t born a slavemaster is to ignore all that slavery has done to secure wealth for certain groups of people
So maybe a 20 year old white person doesn’t have anything to feel ashamed about because he didn’t own slaves, but if he votes Republican, attains wealth through family fortunes dating back to pre-civil rights era, or feels he’s better than black people and entitled to better things because they are undeserving and poor and have been systematically discriminated against their entire lives, then he’s partially responsible as well
An actual innocent person whom I would absolve of all blame would vote to empower minorities, upholding things like the Voting Rights Act, Affirmative Action, etc., would challenge racial and gender stereotypes like voting against people who believe Stop and Frisk is a good policy, do things to reduce inequality, and actually acknowledge that they do receive unfair advantages and not pretend they did everything cause they’re super smart and good.
you’re acting as if all white folks have it good and well … there are a lot of poor whites who will stay poor and who will always struggle … do you think they deserve your scorn and ill will as well ? …
also, I’m sure you’re aware that there are actual white folks who originate from countries that had nothing to do with slavery …
also, everything you say is being done … plenty of white people are helping blacks and other minorities … here and in other countries … but you seem to expect for any and all white folks to become civil rights activists and dedicate their lives to the black cause … that’s not realistic … everyone has their own daily problems to do deal with … most average people are just trying to deal with their own lives and make sure they have their rent money and food on the table …
I understand how you feel … but you have to understand not everyone wakes up in the morning with the goal to go discriminate against you or anyone else … most people are just worried about their own survival
Do YOU consider it racism?
Oh, wait, now you want a serious discussion?
I don’t consider myself guilty for the sins of my ancestors. I may have benefited from their crimes, but that doesn’t make me guilty, or responsible.
If it does, then there’s all kinds of historical wrongs we could bring up, and that opens a crazy can of worms.
And no, you may not assume that I or anyone has has “refused to acknowledge or renounce” anything. Nor am I even responsible for renouncing something that I didn’t even ask for.
Okay. But here’s the problem, which you can’t seem to get through your head: not ALL white people vote Republican, attains wealth through family fortunes dating back to pre-civil rights era, or feels he’s better than black people and entitled to better things because they are undeserving and poor and have been systematically discriminated against their entire lives.
See how that works?
And even if they do, that only justifies complaints about those specific actions. It doesn’t justify any old racist attack on them.
You don’t get to decide who is to blame or who is innocent, nor the punishment. Just a reminder.
As if those things are above debate and simple questions.
If you want to discuss their merits, fine, but you may not simply brand anyone who disagrees with you about them an automatic racist - especially when it comes to AA, which in some cases is racist by definition.
Your position comes down you think you know what’s right or wrong and anyone who disagrees is a racist, and therefore any racism against them is justified. So many holes, and so much arrogance.
Racism is wrong. Agree, or disagree? If you can’t say yes to that simply question, you have no business lecturing anyone about all this.
Hmm. I’ve seen it said here. I’ve asked about it repeatedly, and had it affirmed. As you admit, it did come up - and I made it VERY clear that this was what I was objecting to (and I never said you ALL think it).
But sure, maybe this is all a mistake on my part. So let’s settle this right here and now:
Do you think racism against whites is perfectly acceptable on the part of blacks?
Please just answer “yes” or “no.”
If it’s no, then you AGREE WITH ME, and we’re done, and all that’s left is for you to apologize for all the names you called me if you’re man enough.
If it’s yes, then you’re full of shit and we can continue as before.
“Just answer yes or no” is bullshit lawyer tactics designed to destroy any hint of ambiguity in a very ambiguous area. There. Is. NUANCE. There are shades of gray involved. There is no such thing here as a yes or no question, no matter how very much you’d love the world to conform to your personal preferences.
As a person of overwhelmingly European extraction myself, I know how tempting it is to just declare racism over now that the civil rights era is done and try like hell to act like there isn’t any historical baggage on racial relations, but it’s just not looking at reality.