In this thread, you pretty much missed the point, misrepresented my statements, and represented ideals that are contrary to the goals of every caring parent. But that’s okay, I can deal with that.
But then you characterized an entire group of people doing their jobs as dishonorable because YOU don’t agree with Bush here:
Having received some very helpful advice and information wrt to the actual questions I asked from not one, but two recruiters who responded out of interest in helping a fellow Doper versus filling a quota, I have three words for you:
I have to admit that I actually breathed a little sigh of relief when I saw that post, because it was finally clear how he came to such a twisted conclusion about you and your motivations.
“It is in vain, sir, to extentuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace–but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”
Peter, what makes you think that I persuade people to go to Iraq. I talk to people who want the opportunities that the Army offers. Going to Iraq is possible, but so is going to college.
How about the Soldiers that provide food to displaced people? Are they doing harm to the Nation? The Soldiers that provide medical care to the children of Soldiers who get hurt or sick are only doing so to support the war in Iraq?
I really can’t see how disbanding a standing Army will be of any benefit because there is a war being fought that you don’t like. You also sidestepped my question about those that enlisted between Desert Storm and OIF. Here, I will repost the question:
You don’t like the war in Iraq, vote for a candidate to end it. The Soldiers who enlist do the same thing. Not everybody that I enlist supports the current war, but they do respect the opportunity to serve. Most look at the opportunities that the Army has to offer (college education paid for, cash bonuses, skill training, leadership opportunities, respect, etc) and still come in.
My goal is to help people achieve their goals. If the Army will help that person, then, I do all I can to show the person how it can help. Here in Paris, Texas, I have 40 year old men who need someway to take care of their family. I have teenagers who need a way to escape the drugs that are taking most of their friends. I have women who want to do something that they can be proud of. And yes, I also have the boys who want to go to Iraq to kill people. I will thank you not to decide what the reasons are for people to enlist.
I would like for you to post what you have done for your country. What have you done for your politician? What have you done besides shit on a good thread about a good mother who is trying to do her best by her son?
:rolleyes: Really? I mean I know Peter Morris was kind of being a jerk, but really? Arguing that someone should take a principled stand is being compared to Al Qaeda now? I bet Peter Morris ate bread today - just like Al Qaeda!
While I agree that it’s incredibly wrongheaded to equate Peter Morris to Al Qaeda, I also think it’s incredibly wrongheaded of Peter Morris to imply that the only just fights are the ones that he approves.
Yeah, my post was unnecessarily flip, but to be frank the statement that **Peter Morris **makes in his post scares me. Not the sentiment, but the extremism. The ONLY reason to fight is for a just cause (with the individual presumably having determined the justness). ANYONE who risks his life to destroy evil (again, evil presumably being determined by the individual) is a hero. It’s this framing of the use of violence in such messianic terms that has fostered many of the worst chapters in our history, from the Reign of Terror to September 11.
Of course that’s wrongheaded. It’s the fights that I approve that are just. Would you care to cite a war you disapprove of, but think are just? Actually, scratch that. I doubt those are Peter Morris’s words. I would suspect that Peter Morris would claim that the only just fights are the ones he finds moral. So, would you go ahead and cite a war you consider immoral, but just?
I’m having a hard time here. Maybe I’m interpreting ‘just cause’ too broadly, but it seems really reasonable to only fight for just causes. I’d think being too willing to fight would be scarier than limiting when fighting is acceptable.
I find it kind of funny that the guy arguing that the kid shouldn’t go fight a war he didn’t believe in is being painted as a violent extremist. Yes, joining the army doesn’t necessarily mean Iraq, but chances are pretty high.
“War is an ugly thing. But not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” —John Stuart Mill
You’re saying it’s “extreme” to say that one should only kill for a just reason? You’re saying that anyone who isn’t willing to kill out of blind obedience to authority is an “extremist.” Man, that is a bizarre fucking attitude.
You’re saying it’s NOT heroic to fight evil?
You seem very troubled by the idea that an individual should form his own conclusions about right and wrong. Who do you think SHOULD make those determinations? The government? If your government tells you to killall the Jews, are you an “extremist” if you refuse?
I didn’t see any call for the use of violence except for a just cause. You have a problem with that? Seriously?
How is it “Messianic?”
This doesn’t scan to me at all. Somehow, you think that refraining from unjustified violence led to 9/11 and represents the mentality of al Qaeda? That doesn’t even make stupid sense.
You kept it up Peter Morris and where did it get you? Hostility, of course. Because you aren’t debating. You are asking for justification for your twisted thought process. Sorry, but there is none.
You could read (really READ) tomndebb’s post repeatedly and try to understand the fundamental problem with your argument. You should apologize to the Dopers whose words you distorted and especially for directly disparaging SSG Schwartz. Not that I expect you will.
In any case, my recommendation to you still stands.
He said he wanted a poster to justify soldiers morals. When I respect someone I take into consideration their morals before they garner my respect. Without an indication of morals what you are doing is passing judgment on a person or in this case billions of people. Stupidity is what that is.
In looking at those examples, all of them supported the idea of being in Iraq anyway. The last one was in favor of withdrawal.
If I remember correctly, you were not willing (understandably) to state fully your son’s feelings and thinking about war and the military, but you did say that he said that we should not be in Iraq. For that reason, I don’t think Tom’s statement covered your son’s thinking – although I don’t know what it is.
I think Peter Morris had very difficult questions to ask – important questions. The answers were interesting reading too. It just needed to be here in the Pit.
Peter was pretending to ask questions. When he got answers he either ignored them or twisted them. He edited words out of quotes that didn’t fit with his view and purposely misinterpreted posters and randomly assigned motvation without evidence. One of the most dishonest “debates” I have seen in a while. And probably the best written moderation I have seen on this board.
ETA: Zoe I’m not sure if you also read Peter Morris’ closed GD thread.