Hey Valteron! Merry Christmans ( a non-pitting )

The BBQ Pit
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The Pit is an appropriate place , since this may be, to you, like I am heaping hot cinders onto your head…

I have watched, but not participated in your recent scries against Christmas and all things religious, and I wanted to respond but didn’t want to wade into a shitstorm.

Merry Christmas. Or Happy 25th. Or Happy Winter Solstice. Whatever the day, I wish you joy in it.

I am a follower of Jesus (to the best of my ability). He instructs me to love you. I don’t pretend that as a Xtian I have a corner on the love market, but he is what works for me.

It brings me sorrow that those who profess to follow Jesus have failed you so miserably. Not that I wish someone had convinced you to believe as I do, but that Xtians have obviously not shown you love. But that is our failure, and not yours.

But I wish you peace in your soul. I wish you to feel joy in your heart. I want you to feel love. And not just during the celebrations that correspond with the solstice, but every day.

And just so this qualifies as a Pit thread…FUCKWIT! :stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=newcrasher]
The Pit is an appropriate place , since this may be, to you, like I am heaping hot cinders onto your head…

I have watched, but not participated in your recent scries against Christmas and all things religious, and I wanted to respond but didn’t want to wade into a shitstorm.

Merry Christmas. Or Happy 25th. Or Happy Winter Solstice. Whatever the day, I wish you joy in it.

I am a follower of Jesus (to the best of my ability). He instructs me to love you. I don’t pretend that as a Xtian I have a corner on the love market, but he is what works for me.

It brings me sorrow that those who profess to follow Jesus have failed you so miserably. Not that I wish someone had convinced you to believe as I do, but that Xtians have obviously not shown you love. But that is our failure, and not yours.

But I wish you peace in your soul. I wish you to feel joy in your heart. I want you to feel love. And not just during the celebrations that correspond with the solstice, but every day.

And just so this qualifies as a Pit thread…FUCKWIT! :stuck_out_tongue:
[/QUOTE]

Merry unbirthday of Jesus to you too, FUCKWIT! :smiley:

I have no doubt that you are a nice person and that you genuinely see Christianity as a religion of love.

I have no doubt that most of the Muslims who tell me that Islam is a religion of peace, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, are sincere as well.

If it is of some interest to you, I went to Church with my (same-sex) spouse last night. It is the United Church of Canada (sort of Methodist and Congregationalist in US equivalents). Mainly I go because I believe that you should keep your friends near and your enemies nearer.

Christianity did not fail me. It is an actively agressing force that is and has always been enimical to human dignity and freedom of the individual, just like Islam.

I once sat down an figured out that well over 95% of all the cases I can remember of physical violence being done to me were done by nuns and priests when I was “enjoying” a Catholic education. I figure the other 5% is a time I was assaulted and gay-bashed by some punks.

Today, almost all of the acts of homophobic bigotry directed against me are fueled by religion. In Canada, it was religions who fought tooth and nail to keep gays from getting the right to civil marriage. It is Christians and religious Jews (now allied with Muslims) who are helping to lead the fight against gay rights in the US).

In homophobic hell-holes like Jamaica, gays are lynched and their bodies mutilated while the police laugh, and we are told to but out because Jamaica has a “right to its Christian heritage”.

The Pope (Ratzinger) is a legendary homophobic bigot.

The fact that there are a few people like you in Christianity does not change its basic nature, any more than the existence of a decent Nazi like Oskar Schindler changes what Naziism was.

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Attributing a single characteristic to a very large group of people is called “stereotyping.” You might as well say that people with two hands and two legs are leading the fight against rights; I’ve noticed, everyone speaking anti-gay has two hands and two legs, this can’t be coincidence! Heck, it’s actually AMERICANS who are fighting against gay rights, isn’t it? Do you blame all Americans? After all, the fact that there are a few nice people in the United States doesnt change its basic nature as a Nazi state, does it?

There are plenty of Christians and religious Jews who are fighting for gay rights, as well. If you think that all of Christianity or Judaism or Islam can be boiled down to a monolithic ultra-right wing fanaticism, then you’re oversimplifying and stereotyping, and pushing forth hate speech… and you have been told to cool it.

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Late addition: There is a difference between lashing out at organized religions for the positions they take, and assuming that all persons adhering to that religion trod the party line. There is also a difference between lashing out at organized religions for a specific position, and straight out lying about what those positions are.

No, but it does point out that you can’t make the assumptions that all (or even most) Germans were Nazis and still are to this day… In the same way, you can’t make the assumption that all (or most) Egyptians are murderous Islamic terrorists who would shoot children’s fantasies.

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I repeat: Did I say every Muslim in a Muslim Country would shoot down Santa?

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Did I say every Muslim in a Muslim Country would shoot down Santa? By the way, if I had said a couple of months ago that a Muslim country could throw a lady teacher in jail for allowing kindergarten kids to name a teddy bear “Mohammed”, everybody would have said “there’s that crazy bigot Vlteron again.”

Not every Muslim in the world flew those planes into the WTC either.

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[QUOTE=Valteron]
Merry unbirthday of Jesus to you too, FUCKWIT! :smiley:

I have no doubt that you are a nice person and that you genuinely see Christianity as a religion of love.

I have no doubt that most of the Muslims who tell me that Islam is a religion of peace, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, are sincere as well.

If it is of some interest to you, I went to Church with my (same-sex) spouse last night. It is the United Church of Canada (sort of Methodist and Congregationalist in US equivalents). Mainly I go because I believe that you should keep your friends near and your enemies nearer.

Christianity did not fail me. It is an actively agressing force that is and has always been enimical to human dignity and freedom of the individual, just like Islam.

I once sat down an figured out that well over 95% of all the cases I can remember of physical violence being done to me were done by nuns and priests when I was “enjoying” a Catholic education. I figure the other 5% is a time I was assaulted and gay-bashed by some punks.

Today, almost all of the acts of homophobic bigotry directed against me are fueled by religion. In Canada, it was religions who fought tooth and nail to keep gays from getting the right to civil marriage. It is Christians and religious Jews (now allied with Muslims) who are helping to lead the fight against gay rights in the US).

In homophobic hell-holes like Jamaica, gays are lynched and their bodies mutilated while the police laugh, and we are told to but out because Jamaica has a “right to its Christian heritage”.

The Pope (Ratzinger) is a legendary homophobic bigot.

The fact that there are a few people like you in Christianity does not change its basic nature, any more than the existence of a decent Nazi like Oskar Schindler changes what Naziism was.
[/QUOTE]

I will point out that people of faith have led the charge in social justice in the past. Abolition, child labor, civil rights, to name a few.

We seem to have fallen asleep at the wheel lately, but there is a serious movement afoot trying to get our shit together to do it again in a big way. Stay tuned.

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Okay, I was gojng to ask the OP If he didn’t mean to pit VC03 but got confused, and then, hell. Yeah, go for it.

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I’m with newcrasher on this.

Valteron, you’re obviously a pedophilic AIDS-infested promiscuous hedonistic sociopath with no interest whatsoever in other human beings or their needs, just your own carnal pleasures. After all, that’s what “Dr.” James Dobson tells us all gay men are like. :rolleyes:

And if that stereotype pisses you off as much as I hope it does, use the compassionate humanism that you claim to have, and realize how much **your ** stereotypes upset others who are trying to support you and yours in their quest for equality and dignity – because, in many cases, that’s what they believe Jesus says to do (as opposed to what Pope Ratzo or Pastor Imabigot may claim He says).

Think about it. At rock bottom, I’m no different than you. Nor are jayjay, shodan, tomndebb, newcrasher, Zoe, and anyone else you claim to name. Our common humanity outweighs any differences of opinion we may have. And, at rock bottom, that’s a lot of what Christmas is supposed to be about.

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Whoaaaa, man
Polycarp Has christened you unworthy. You are doomed, man, run away now.

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Light shines brightest in the dark. Merry Christmas Valteron.

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Oh, and I feel like sharing this Skillet song: A little more

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[QUOTE=Autolycus]
Skillet
[/QUOTE]
There are Nickelback wannabee bands now?

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I think that the human condition would allow people to find a way to hate each other even if there was no religion.

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[QUOTE=newcrasher]
I think that the human condition would allow people to find a way to hate each other even if there was no religion.
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s the nature of humanity that people will be mean and petty and vicious, or decent and kind and generous, no matter what their profession of faith or non-faith dictates. If someone’s good or bad, it isn’t necessarily because of the belief.

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[QUOTE=Ice Wolf]
I think it’s the nature of humanity that people will be mean and petty and vicious, or decent and kind and generous, no matter what their profession of faith or non-faith dictates. If someone’s good or bad, it isn’t necessarily because of the belief.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. We can do evil with or without religion…and we can do good with or without as well.

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[QUOTE=Valteron]
Today, almost all of the acts of homophobic bigotry directed against me are fueled by religion. In Canada, it was religions who fought tooth and nail to keep gays from getting the right to civil marriage. It is Christians and religious Jews (now allied with Muslims) who are helping to lead the fight against gay rights in the US).
[/QUOTE]

As a gay Christian, Valteron, I don’t disagree with you that religious types are leading the fight against gay rights in the US, but religious groups are also leading the fight for gay rights- if not, the Episcopal Church wouldn’t be causing so much controversy in the Anglican Communion because of their GLBT-positive stance, the United Church of Christ wouldn’t have lost 200 churches because of its support of same-sex marriage, the Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Methodists wouldn’t be facing schism over their own divide in opinion over sexuality. The fact that denominations are actually debating and fighting over this issue is a sign that there is actually a significant voice for GLBT rights within our churches.

You said you went to a United Church of Canada congregation. Well, the United Church of Canada, the largest Protestant denomination in Canada, not only supports same-sex marriage, it testified to their own advocacy of same-sex marriage in House of Commons Justice Committee hearings, a small but important step in making equal marriage a reality.

I know that the loudest religious voices are adamantly against GLBT rights. As a gay man and a Christian, hearing the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell hurt me on both levels, and to be honest, I don’t blame anyone for hating religion. Even so, I do believe that it isn’t religion’s fault but rather our own human propensity for fear over understanding.

Regardless of how you take my post, I hope you and your partner have had a good holiday!

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[QUOTE=Valteron]
Christianity did not fail me. It is an actively agressing force that is and has always been enimical to human dignity and freedom of the individual, just like Islam.

I once sat down an figured out that well over 95% of all the cases I can remember of physical violence being done to me were done by nuns and priests when I was “enjoying” a Catholic education. I figure the other 5% is a time I was assaulted and gay-bashed by some punks.
[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to mention that there are quite a number of people on IIDB who feel this way, so if you aren’t there already, you may find some kindred spirits there. And there are quite a few people who post here from there also.

But I’m with all the people in this thread who say that while religion has been the vehicle for the prejudice, it isn’t the source. And without religion, there’d be another vehicle.

And I too, hope that you find some peace surrounding this topic. All the people that I’ve personally discussed this issue with have made it one of the focus points of their life. . . often in a way that’s hurtful to them.

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[QUOTE=newcrasher]
Agreed. We can do evil with or without religion…and we can do good with or without as well.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with that. But I also think that religion gives not only a polite facade to the hatred and the occasional effect of a mob, it also gives direction, organization, a bureaucracy of sorts, that makes the target more targeted than would otherwise happen.

There’s a reason people organize when they need power, whether that power is to be used for good or evil. Get everyone pulling in a single direction and the things you can accomplish will be greater than if everyone is pulling on their own, willy-nilly.

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Peace be with you Valteron.