Hezbollah an Israeli creation?

[cainxinth]

damn hamsters, I almost got that in on time.

[Alessan]

*Originally posted by cainxinth *
**Prior to '48 Jewish immigrants were purchasing land in Palestine, but there is a difference between setting up shop in someone else’s country and campaigning for that country to be renamed as your own. **

By “somebody else’s country” I assume you mean the British. Well, they left, and we took over. After all, the Brits conquered it from the Turks, who conquered it from the Mameluks, whoconquered it from the Crusaders, who conquered it from the Chalifs, who conquered it from the Byzantines…

The last time this area was an independent country, it was ours.

[SuaSponte]

Mu-ah-ah-ah!!

Sua

[cainxinth]

The eye of SuaSponte is upon us all!

Alessan, so do you believe all ingenious people that lack the governmental structure and fortitude to claim their boundaries are fair game for imperialists? What is your stance on Tibet, Kashmir, or apartheid South Africa?

[Alessan]

Sorry, Sua.

You can badmouth my country as much as you want, just get your history straight.

[cainxinth]

There hasn’t been one derogatory word uttered about Israel in this thread, and I can guarantee you won’t hear one from me.

We’re debating the historical decision to create a Jewish state. Obviously it’s sensitive subject for you, but so far I thought we’ve been done a fine job of speaking dispassionately about it.

[Alessan]

And I’m saying there was no decision to create a Jewish state. At most, there was a decision by a a couple of nations to step out of the way and let it create itself.

I’m sorry - I know you mean well, but the implication that somehow we were given a nation, as some sort of gift, an act of international charity, well… that’s far more insulting that any accusation of war crimes and atrocities. It turns us into victims.

[Azael]

And what I’m trying to say, is that in no point of time was any land “given” to anybody. My country’s founding fathers and mothers fought for every inch of land they got. despite the efforts of nearly every nation involved. They were not victims waiting for a handout.

So what you are trying to say is…

that land was taken, tooth and nail?

[Rider]

Yup, my mistake…Hamas not Hezbollah. Apologies.

I don’t think you can only blame the UK and UN for the current situation. I think the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinians, since the atrocities of terror groups like the Stern Gang to modern day breaches of UN law, is the reason for the trouble at present. And the reason why much of the world seems to be losing sympathy with Israel.

[cainxinth]

*Originally posted by Alessan *
**And I’m saying there was no decision to create a Jewish state. At most, there was a decision by a a couple of nations to step out of the way and let it create itself.

I’m sorry - I know you mean well, but the implication that somehow we were given a nation, as some sort of gift, an act of international charity, well… that’s far more insulting that any accusation of war crimes and atrocities. It turns us into victims. **

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

The Palestine problem became an international issue towards the end of the First World War with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League’s Covenant (Article 22) .

All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to “the rendering of administrative assistance and advice” the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the “Balfour Declaration” issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”.

During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, Great Britain in frustration turned the problem over to the United Nations.

After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being.

In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.

In 1974, the General Assembly reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and sovereignty, and to return. The following year, the General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People. The General Assembly conferred on the PLO the status of observer in the Assembly and in other international conferences held under United Nations auspices…

The UN is largely responsible for the Israeli conflict, and they know it.

The decedents of the people that lived in that land when God spoke out loud on a regular basis moved back home. Sounds nice if you’re a religious person. I’m not, I’m a political person, and from a contemporary political view Israel is a colony of a few million Jews mostly from Western Europe that in fleeing persecution in their homelands ended up persecuting other people in theirs.

Why do you think the US, UK, Turkey and a handful of Kurdish rebels (that seem to be America’s unwitting pawns yet again) are the only nations ready to go to bat for you? I think Israel has every right to exist, but not in its present form. Something has to give and the Arabs are already scraping the bottom. One last pipedream - the US should also retract support for the oppressive dictators and monarchs in the Middle East and devote the $100 billion its putting together to invade Iraq into a hydrogen fuel cell crash course.

[Alessan]

In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.

… in the framework of a peace deal - look it up. Also note that they said “territories” and not “all territories”. Minor nitpicks of a document that’s largely worthless anyway, true, but points often overlooked.

I agree with you the UN made a few mistakes, namely:

1. Drawing a partition map which was entirely unworkable. Look at it when you have a chance - nrither nation has defensible borders, topographic frontiers, or even borders that allow freedom of movement inside the country. The UN map was designed by commity, and it looks that way.

2. Not securing the agreement of all parties involved to the plan. While the Zionist leadership agreed with great reluctance, the Palestinian leadership refused to even discuss the existance of a Jewish state, as did all other surrounding nations. A deal made without the consent of all sides involved is hardly relevant; once refused, it ceases to exist.

3. No means were taken to enforce the partition plan - no ordered handover of land, no UN peacekeeping force, no attemt to prevent invasion by foreign powers. The Brits just got on
   their boads and said “deal with it”. We did.

4. The UN, then as today, had highly unwarrented delusions of relevance.

I’m a political person, and from a contemporary political view Israel is a colony of a few million Jews mostly from Western Europe that in fleeing persecution in their homelands ended up persecuting other people in theirs.

1. Former colony. Just like the U.S.

2. Actually, most Israelis are from Eastern European, Middle Eastern and Northe African descent. Western Europeans have always been a distinct minority.

3. I’d rather nobody was persecuted at all, but barring that, I prefer being the persecuter. You may lose the moral high ground, but the hours are better.

Look, you say that Israel should exist “in a different form.” Well, lets hear it - but bear in mind that no Israeli will accept a state without secure borders and an overwhelming, permanant Jewish majority.

BTW - I’m all for the US withdrawing support from dictators and monarchs. Leaves more for us.

[rampisad]

Even the UN makes factual mis-statements (surprise, surprise)

One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy **77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. **

From the 1917 Balfour Agreement

<snip>
His Majesty’s Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people …

“Palestine” at the time of the Declaration consisted of areas of land on both sides of the Jordan river ( referred to as Areas A & B in the map of the Sykes-Picot Agreement, found here - http://www.mideastweb.org/mesykespicot.htm#MAPI), with the area under British control amounting to what essentially is modern-day Jordan plus Israel minus the Negev. Israel does not “occupy” 77 per cent of “Palestine”, but was allocated in a valid UN partition plan, or captured in the 1948 War of Independance, less than 12 per cent of the total area of “Palestine”.

BTW, it was only as a result of Jewish anti-Zionism that the Balfour Declaration did not say

"Palestine should be reconstituted as the National Home of the Jewish people."

but instead read “the establishment in Palestine of a Home for the Jewish people.”

There are many myths about the founding of Israel, and the idea that it was land “stolen” from the “palestinians” is one of the most prevalent.

[SuaSponte]

*Originally posted by Alessan *
**Sorry, Sua.

You can badmouth my country as much as you want, just get your history straight. **

Alessan, my “Mu-ha-ha” was directed at cainxinth, not you.
What did I say that was either inaccurate or denigrating to Israel?

Sua

[Alessan]

Actually, the first part of my statement was for you - I find that apologizing to you at random is often effective policy.

The second part was for cainxinth.

[sub]Hey man, think of the time zones. I’m not so sharp at 1 AM[/sub]

[cainxinth]

*Originally posted by rampisad *
**There are many myths about the founding of Israel, and the idea that it was land “stolen” from the “palestinians” is one of the most prevalent. **

Then please do debunk this myth for me.

As far as I can tell a few million people lost their homes and a few million other people are now living in them. It didn’t happen during the Roman Empire. It was initiated by the British Empire, but permited to continue by the UN when even after International Law began replacing rule by hegemonic expansionists. What makes Israel a legitimate colony? Because the Palestinans weren’t as poltically sophisticated as the Jews? Because they were opposed to anyone walking into their home and drawing a line and saying, “these people are going to live here”? How is it justified?

[Alessan]

Would you stop with your UN crap? How many times do I have to tell you that the UN has done exactly zilch in Israel?

Anyway, they lost their home because they lost a war they chose to fight. If they had accepted the UN plan in 1948 things might have looked differently. If they had won (and believe me, they had both numbers and material on their side), we would be dealing today with a Jewish problem in Palestine - if the Arabs had actually let them stay. Or live.
One more thing: you keep on referring to Israel as a colony.I have to ask - a colony of what? I mean, you can’t just be a colony. You have to have a “mother country”.

[Azael]

Anyway, they lost their home because they lost a war they chose to fight.

Do better, please. Explain to the rest of us why the right of Israelis to take land and form a nation supercedes the right of the people who were already living on that land to self-determination.