"Hi. My name is T. Boone Pickens. I am an oil man...."

Here’s my take on this. Ideally, if we lived in a theoretical market, you would make coal producers capture and scrub any and all pollution they create. But we don’t live in that theoretical market. If we tried to pass legislation tomorrow to require coal companies to capture all of their pollution, there would be a huge outcry about how we were bankrupting the industry (and it’s possibly correct that the current costs of scrubbing would be bankrupting).

That means that we’re limited to incremental change, which the coal companies are going to fight tooth and nail at every step (which they should – if you can get away with externalizing a cost, then that’s the rational thing to do). Which means it will be decades before we get to anything approaching a full scrub. And as you point out, it may not be technically feasible to ever do a complete scrub.

Given that getting rid of the externalized pollution costs of coal is decades out, I have no problem with subsidizing wind or solar or other less-polluting/non-polluting forms of power. Now, I personally wouldn’t structure the subsidies in the way they’ve been structured, but the way I would structure them probably would never happen in this country. As wind power becomes more efficient, and as we increasingly force the cost of pollution back onto coal power, then it makes sense to phase the subsidies out.

Not to worry.
Someone else has your back.
http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=2165257
T Boone Pickens gave a bunch of money to Oklahoma State athletics. An OU fan used darker colored bricks during construction to spell out OU on the side of a building.

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :mad: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :mad: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :slight_smile:
:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :mad: :mad: :mad: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

And I believe that person was fired and his construction company forced to pay to rip it out and redo it.

This summer, he just dumped a few cubic yards of $$$ into matching funds for endowed chairs too - not just a one trick pony, though the trick done with our new stadium is a rather nice one.

And KRM you have the Gaylord family as your ludicrously large donors!

Natural gas powered cars sound dangerous. What if the guy in the car in front of you throws a lit cigarette out of his window? BOOM!

By the way, do his friends call him T-Bone?

Hardly. The technology has existed for decades, and is regulated for safety by the DOT. Back in the 70’s I had more than a dozen school buses outfitted for CNG. A carburetor plate and a 25 gallon tank allowed them to run on CNG, and a simple switch on the dashboard made them “dual fuel” by allowing the operator to choose either CNG or gasoline. Total cost was a few hundred bucks each. There might be a fleet vehicle powered by CNG behind or in front of you right now. There has not been a single “BOOM!” in decades.

CNG has less energy per unit volume than gasoline, so the buses got about 12% less mileage when using CNG, but the cost was less than 40% of the cost of gasoline (even back in the halcyon days of the 1970s). And it burned cleaner than gas, so oil changes and other maintenance intervals could be extended. Filling up was done by an operator at the CNG station, using a pressurized hose, and taking no more time than filling up with gas. And CNG is, I believe, still quite plentiful right now.

Seems to me that CNG/gasoline duel fuel vehicles could be made widely and cheaply available within months, not years, as a retrofit for existing vehicles. If the expense was subsidized, I’ll bet nearly everybody would make the appointment tomorrow. If domestic CNG could also be made commensurately widely available, this might serve as a “bridge” technology-- allowing us to immediately and substantially reduce our dependence on foreign oil, while providing time for technology to improve on any of the alternative fronts (hydrogen, fuel cell, electric from sources other than burning hydrocarbons, etc.).

Burning CNG instead of liquid petroleum does not, of course, address carbon footprint. But immediate relief from the cascading problems of petroleum dependence may give us sufficient breathing time, and make available additional economic resources, to come out a net positive, short term at least, on the cost/benefit analysis.

There are other problems with CNG. Gas leaks are a big one. Around here, we have signs on underground parkades and other enclosed spaces forbidding entrance for vehicles powered by CNG.

As for the cost of wind power, there’s no doubt that there are currently forms of energy cheaper than wind. In fact, most of the common ones - hydro, nuclear, coal, gas turbines - are cheaper than wind in a raw cost per kWh sense.

But that’s not the only factor in deciding to build a wind farm. For one thing, if you assume that some sort of carbon pricing is coming down the pike (either in the form of a carbon tax, cap and trade, or demands to sequester carbon), wind suddenly becomes competitive. So building wind farms today is a hedge against the political climate of the future. In addition, wind can make sense in remoter regions where transmission line losses would be high for grid power, and in areas where it is difficult or impossible to get permits to build new coal plants.

Wind power can also come online relatively quickly from the start of breaking ground, and for areas that have seen a spike in consumption and can’t meet it, wind can make sense.

Alberta is currently making about 500MW of power from wind. I believe that’s around 2% of our total energy.

Even though Alberta is a leader in wind energy, the experience here makes me skeptical of Pickens’ plan. We have the perfect geography in southern Alberta for wind power - air moving over the Rockies descends and heats, giving us constant easterly warm winds in many areas. The winds in the Pincher Creek area provide the stations around there with a utilization rate of over 40%, which is a big deal for the economics of wind power.

Here’s an excellent site showing far more details about wind resources available: Wind Powering America. The first map on the page is Pickens’ wind map that he showed, indicating the wind resources available in the middle of the country. His map made it look like the center third of the country could be converted into a giant wind farm or something. But on that site, there’s a map below that one where you can drill in to each state and see where the peak wind is and how much there is.

For example, Nebraska is right in the center of his high wind zone. But if you look at the Wind Resource Map of Nebraska, you’ll notice that most of the areas have ‘fair’ winds. Current wind turbines need winds of about 14m/s to get full power from a wind turbine, and about 4 m/s to start the blades turning (you can see a typical power graph here).

Note that at 10m/s, the turbine is producing less than half the power it produces at 15. So high, constant wind speeds are necessary (it doesn’t do you any good to have a region where the wind blows at 50km/h some times, and is calm the rest of the time. You can’t recover the energy from the high wind (the turbines max out at the 15 m/s speed, due to Betz’ law. Some turbines can move the curve down somewhat: here’s a graph of the power coefficient of a 1MW turbine plotted against wind speed: Wind Power Coefficient Graph. Note that power is zero at 5 m/s on this graph, peaks at about 12 m/s. But the curve is steep - at about 7 m/s you’re only making half the power you’d make at 10 m/s.

Given all that, have a look at that map of Nebraska again. In that entire state, there are NO regions of wind that would provide max utilization of a wind turbine. There are a fair number of ‘good’ regions where the wind is 7.2-7.8 m/s. Looking at that coefficient graph again, you’ll see that that’s going to get you a power coefficient of maybe 20-25%. That’s a tough number for wind power, and it would be pretty expensive power indeed.

South Dakota is much better - there are a few ‘outstanding’ areas for wind production - the areas marked in red. Wyoming looks even better. Wyoming is already a leader in wind power.

So Pickens is being a little misleading - sure, there’s a wide swath of middle America where the winds are higher than elsewhere - but his implication that you could fill the entire region with wind farms is ridiculous. You’ve got a few ‘hot spots’ in Wyoming, Montana, and South Dakota where wind power is cost-competitive today, and there are already wind farms going up in all those areas. The vast majority of land in that swath just isn’t suitable - oh, you could make wind power there because the wind is greater than 5 m/s, but you’d pay two to four times more for it - so much that it makes no sense.

Sam, I’m not arguing in favor of this proposal for wind generation. I see the same issues that you outline so well. However, I would like to explore further the possibility of CNG as a bridge to some (undetermined) alternative technology. (My preference inclines toward nuclear. Just sayin’…)

I may be mistaken (we don’t have any underground anythings here in Florida) but my memory of restrictions on CNG vehicles in other parts of the US had to do with tanks for accessory uses, like those on recreational vehicles. CNG or LP is commonly used for stoves, refrigerators, etc. These may indeed have problems with leaks, and my RV trip planner makes mention of restrictions in certain instances. But I do not recall any restrictions on vehicles actually powered by CNG, except for a couple of tunnels, where any and all high pressure tanks of any kind are prohibited. I recall being surprised myself, that this was considered to be such a safe and stable technology that any vehicle, including highly regulated school buses of all things, could easily retrofit approved systems.

And CNG or LP burning forklifts and such are exceedingly common in enclosed spaces like factories and warehouses. So I don’t think leaks would be an insurmountable problem. Please tell me if this is wrong.

The biggest problem with my fleet use was zoning restrictions on placement of large tanks to service the fleet. The city fathers of my own small town back then would not allow me to have a supply tank for my bus fleet. But the unincorporated county all around me would allow propane supply tanks at virtually any gas station or BBQ supply store. Our biggest problem in not having our own supply tank at our shop was fitting school buses into retail establishments intended for cars. And filling them up next to the BBQ tanks. We got some real strange looks!

To incorporate widespread automotive use of CNG we wouldn’t need to build any additional refinery capacity, as we would if we drill for more oil. (Let us not here debate the separate issues of the amount of petroleum that may or may not actually be available for new drilling. Or the time scale required for exploration, drilling, and refining to have any impact.) CNG does not require anything like the same kind of refinery technology as petroleum, and much CNG is already produced as a by-product of oil production.

(Much, in fact, is wasted in burn-off flares. And we also need not visit the possibility for bio-generation of such gases, as from landfills and/or co-generation power plants. These are tangential.)

Vehicle retrofit for CNG/LP dual fuel (think of it as a gasoline / CNG hybrid!) can be done on almost any gasoline burning vehicle for well under $1,000. Increased demand would probably lower the unit price, and either direct or indirect subsidies could be used to help encourage the changeover. This seems a perfectly acceptable price for the average consumer to pay on any relatively late model car, if it would free him/her from total reliance on gasoline. It might allow retention of a vehicle that otherwise would have to be traded in for a newer, more expensive, probably smaller, and definitely scarce and hard to obtain hybrid of some other kind. And it might allow Detroit to continue selling vehicles manufactured with existing tools and dies (assuming some small additional tooling for those carb plates and tanks) without closing whole plants for a complete change. I note that this changeover in manufacturing ability is being envisioned as possible bankruptcy for some of our auto manufacturers. This by itself might make CNG worthwhile. (Not that I’m a great protectionist for the auto industry-- but given the sad state of the economy, throwing a few hundred thousand more people out of work is likely not a really good thing just now.)

CNG/LP would require some additional production, and additional transportation, storage, and delivery infrastructure. But nothing like the kind of investment that would be needed to bring on, say, hydrogen fuel. As I noted above, CNG/LP is already widely available, albeit in quantities more suited to BBQs than vehicles. Still, simply ramping up the capacity and/or delivery frequency cannot be nearly as difficult and expensive as the totally different technology needed to produce and supply liquified hydrogen.

Big question seems to be, is there sufficient domestic reserve natural gas to replace a significant fraction (say 20 or more percent as a minimum) of our present highway consumption of imported petroleum?

Price point way back when (my experience in the 70s) made CNG very attractive versus gasoline. I do not know what the market is today. Nor can I predict what a high new demand might do to the price of CNG. That just isn’t my area of expertise. But it seems that, if the short term economics were even close to balanced, this would be a swift, comparatively cheap, and relatively simple way to dramatically reduce oil use almost immediately without requiring questionable and problematic breakthroughs in new technology, or exceedingly high initial deployment costs. (Cheap, light weight, high capacity batteries, anyone? Perhaps a fuel cell that actually produces more energy than manufacturing it requires? Or maybe you’ve got a pocket fusion generator coming out for the Fall lineup.) It would not be a cure, but it may provide the time needed to properly develop and widely deploy some more permanent alternative technology.

The countryside in the northwest of Ireland has a lot of wind turbines. As it stands they’re not a particular eyesore, and some are situated in places where they look quite beautiful. However, too many of them in the area would destroy the natural beauty. That’s my fuppence worth. What’s the deal with wave power?

Interest keeps rising and falling…

But seriously, it’s a huge subject and there are a lot of resources out there you can find. From my standpoint in the industry, the main benefits are:

  • huge energy potential.
  • renewable

…and the main drawbacks are:

  • cost for actual, installed, working installations
  • concerns over disruption to sea life and currents
  • concerns over shipping disruption
  • poor efficiency could mean high O&M costs
  • survivability in storms

Nonetheless, improvements have been made in just the short time folks have seriously been looking into it. (I’m assuming that you were wondering about oscillating wave systems, or tidal systems in the open ocean, not things like plans to dam the Severn.)

Just going on record of hearing of this guy for the first time, in this thread. So, I can’t imagine why it’s such a big deal to have never heard of a guy I never heard of.

I suspect that once you figure in the cost of decommissioning and waste disposal, nuclear doesn’t look quite so economical. Both of those costs are conveniently left out of the cost of building a new nuke power plant.

cricetus, the fact that *you * don’t know something … well, take it from there.
Anyway, a Big Oil guy recognizing that the glory days are coming to an end is a welcome development, however delayed it may be for an American one.

Pickens never did follow through with his Swiftboaters claim after Kerry called him on it, did he? Might as well just cut the check; it’s petty cash to him.

Wait? What’s this? A personal slight? Unprovoked? In a Great Debate?

ElvisL1ves, let’s not turn this into a personal pissing contest.

cricetus, don’t fall into the trap of getting personal in response. If you figure it is a rule violation, privately report it an publicly ignore it.

[ /Moderating ]

T. Boone is the man I put behind the speculation runup, not last year, but a few years back. He’s a big name in oil, he’s not stupid…

Which makes me wonder like hell what he’s going on about because he knows what he’s suggesting ain’t gonna work at all.

I beg your pardon? Where the hell do you see that? Seriously, where?

Either you were complementing him Elvis, or you were being sarcastic. I wasn’t sure which.

Anyway here’s T Boone Picken’s entry in Wikipedia. He was a big corporate raider in the 1980s and even made the cover of Time Magazine. One of his tricks was Greenmailing: he’d purchase lots of shares of a firm and threaten to take it over and fire the head managers if they didn’t buy those shares back at a premium.

That aside, this is a pretty interesting thread.

Okay, maybe it wasn’t entirely clear.

How else should one understand that except as an assertion that one’s *own * ignorance of a subject means it therefore cannot be “a big deal”? Is it not appropriate to point out a logical fallacy when it is made? Is it not even possible to do so without it being declared “personal pissing”?

Geez, guys…

On Comparative Power Costs

Consider the figures from the MIT report on the Future on Nuclear Power The Future of Nuclear Power
(Summary Report, p. 17)

Pulverized Coal 4.2 cents/kWe-hr
Nuclear, if we reduce construction costs 25%, reduce construction time by one year, further reduce operations costs and reduce cost of capital to that of coal/gas(!) 4.2 cents

Coal, with $50/ton Carbon tax: 5.4
Coal with $100/ton Carbon tax: 6.6
Nuclear (LWR) today: 6.7
Coal with $200/ton Carbon tax: 9.0

I understand that wind power is economical today, once the 1.8 cents per kw/hr federal subsidy is factored in. See footnote 41 of this MIT study for the subsidy amount: A comparative study of wind power in the United States, Europe and Japan : strategies applicable to Japan

Note that the difference between nuclear and coal with zero tax exceeds that subsidy: 6.7-4.2 = 2.5 > 1.8 *

So I would say that if nuclear is viable, wind is viable as well. Of course, following Sam Stone we’d expect the best wind sites to be taken first.

  • Eyeballing the numbers though, it seems as that the wind subsidy is equivalent to a carbon tax in the $50 - $100 range. Over the long run, that may be a little generous, but as an R&D subsidy, it doesn’t look as bad.

Charitably, cricetus was noting that there were at least 3 posters that had not heard of T Boone Pickens. (I don’t read about sports. Apparently there are a number of people who don’t read the business section. Perhaps some of them might want to skim The Economist now and then, if they want a policy oriented and even somewhat literary take on big business.)

Being a Swift Boat Veteran supporter does not make one’s credibility suspect. Quite the opposite, actually.

T. Boone has a brain and he isn’t afraid to use it. His idea is not original in toto, but the fact that he is willing to put his money (and a lot of it) where his mouth is carries a lot of weight.