High Protein? Low Fat? Low Carb? Fat/formerly fat dopers debate!

At the age of 42, I have realized some things about myself:

  1. I do not eat the kind of quantity I used to. While I can still be compulsive, the general diet I follow when left to my own devices should at worst make me a tiny bit chubby. Yet I weigh nearly…well, I weigh a lot.

  2. I will always go for the bread/potatoes/pasta/sugar + lots of fat, when given the chance.

  3. The only eating plan on which I actually LOSE weight is one which emphasizes protein/fat and vegetables, and either removes complex carbs completely or confines them to one hour a day in combination with protein, veges and fat.

Calorically, the high-protein (NOT ATKINS! I do NOT go into ketosis) diet is at least as calorically dense as any other, probably more since I do exploit the fact that I can eat bacon and corned beef and butter. Yet I lose weight.

Low fat/ low carb leaves me feeling like hell, and I have to physically starve in order to lose any weight.

So. I think that all the pooh-pooh experts who say protein diets are bad and insist that it’s always about calories are full of it.

What do you say?

I say everyone is different and some people’s metabolisms react better to one sort of diet than others.

Like a lot of women, I have been fighting the good fight since hitting puberty. I come from an overweight family, grew up with terrible eating habits, and genetics gave me that comfortable, European salt-of-the-Earth, low-center-of-gravity body designs. I’ve tried a fair number of diet plans, from macrobiotic to high-protien/no starch and everything in between. Interestingly, all have worked to some extent, none have been easily sustainable, and different ones have worked at different times in my life. I went to one specialist who said “high protien/low fat”, another who said “don’t worry about fat & protein, stop eating sugar”. I guess you just have to find which one is right for your metabolism.

The high protein Zone-type diets certainly make you lose weight, and pretty quickly, but I found that it came back on even faster. Also, my cholesterol shot up and I started to have headaches, acid indigestion, and my periods went all wierd. Clearly, this was not the diet for me.

I had the most success with a sort-of modified macrobiotic diet, emphasizing whole grains, vegetables & legumes, with only limited dairy. I didn’t worry about calories and concentrated on avoiding processed foods. I had a slow, steady weight loss that I kept off for years. My husband needs more protein than I do, so we made modifications for him.

Recently, as I approach 40, I can feel my metabolism changing again and the weight wants to creep back on. I guess it’s time to get better at my eating habits again and maybe start looking at what needs to be changed.

Stoidela,

Do you want to open this up to such things as exercise, metabolic set points, weight yo-yo, and effectiveness of diets in general, or do you want to keep it in the realm of carb/protein debate?

I only ask because I don’t want to hijack the thread right off the bat. I have a lot to say about the things I mentioned, but nothing really on the effectiveness of one specific diet over another.

Dr. John McDougall says high protein diets are bad.

His main target is not the radical Atkins diet, but the more moderate “Zone” diet of Dr. Barry Sears.
For me personally, I chose my diet by consensus. The “traditional” crowd says all fat is evil and carbohydrates are good. The Atkins/Sears crowd says unsaturated fat is good and carbohydrates are evil. But both of them agree that saturated fat is no good. So, I elected to limit my saturated fat intake, and only my saturated fat intake.

Feel free to hijack!

And I’d like to hear what you have to say.

I lost weight very slowly and miserably on a traditional low fat diet. I was hungry all the time and could not stick to it.

I started low-carb (Atkins - which is not high-protein, it’s adequate protein and low carb) in January of 99. The first two weeks are extreme - afer that you add in enough low-glycemic carbs so that you can still lose weight. I have lost 50 lbs, gained muscle, and have found a way of eating that I can stick with the rest of my life. I eat plenty of veggies and low-glycemic fruit fairly often as well (strawberries, raspberries, cantaloupe, etc.) I don’t restrict my fat intake, but I don’t drink buckets of bacon grease for breakfast, either. I went from a size 16 or so to a size 8 (well, I’m still a 14 up top, but there’s nothing I can do about that except for surgery). Since I am getting close to maintenance, whole grain bread is now a fairly regular part of my diet.

My cholesterol is 180, slightly lower than it was when I was eating low fat. All my blood work is “perfect” according to my doctor.

I recently started a weight-training program to add some muscle and lose some fat. Unfortunately I have had to stop for the time being due to a reoccurence of some back problems (not due to the weight-lifting).

If I eat too many empty high-glycemic carbs, I want to eat more and more of them. It’s like a little switch goes on in my brain that kicks my appetite into overdrive. I have learned my limits and know how much I can indulge in withoug getting to the “must eat everything in sight” mode.

But everyone is different, and just because something works for me doesn’t mean it will work for you. Some peopls can lose on low fat and maintain it. It doesn’t work for me, though.

It should go without saying that if you lose weight on a specific eating program, then go back to your old eating habits, you (generic you) will gain the weight back. I hear this fairly frequently - “I lost X lbs on Atkins or Protein Power or whatever, and I felt great, but then I went off the program and gained it all back.” Doh! What do these people expect to happen?

Good luck with whatever you decide.

I was on the raquetball diet. Eat all I want, and play 4 to 5 hours of racquetball a week (after doing the proper stretching first). I lost fifty pounds that way. Then I graduated, racqetball courts now costs $30/hr to reserve as opposed to free when I was in college, and, worse of all, I landed a cool, but sedentary, job. Gained it all back and then some.

Ok, not much of a debate to follow, but here goes. Typical disclaimers for medical causes for obesity apply.

First of all, as porcupine indicated, the vast majority of people who go on “diets” end up gaining the weight back, and then some. I’ve read that this applies to 95% of dieters; that is, the weight is gained back within three years. Even if that number is overstated, there is no question that diets, in and of themselves, rarely work.

What is needed is a lifelong change in eating habits. This is much different than a diet. Unless, of course, the goal is to drop some pounds for a wedding or a swimsuit-intensive trip to the beach, without too much worry about what follows afterwards.

Metabolism. Ah, the key to effective weight loss. Some of us are just cursed with a lousy metabolism. We all know those who eat all the time and never seem to gain any weight (bastards! :)). Others, like me, have genetic tendancies that are difficult to overcome. For example, my father died this spring of complications from adult-onset diabetes. He well over 300 pounds; probably closer to 350. He ate himself to death. He was 57. My mother, too, tends to be on the heavy side.

So, what to do about it? All is not lost! It takes time and effort to raise metabolic rate, but it can be done. Lowering your intake of calories will not raise your metabolism; rather, the opposite will occur. Is it any wonder diets don’t work? Let’s say you drop from 3000 calories a day to 1200. Yes, you will lose some weight for a while, but your metabolism will drop as well. Then, when you go off the diet, your metabolic set point is so low, that going back to 3000 calories a day will not only cause you to gain back lost weight, but you are now in danger of ending up heavier than ever before! Add to that depressive factors, feelings of failure from regression, the tendency for many overweight people to then turn to food as a comfort/coping mechanism, and well, the spiral continues downward.

Exercise. I know, I know, not a lot of fun to think about, and difficult for many sedentery people to contemplate. But it needs to be an important part of any weight-loss program. I’m not talking about getting off the couch for the first time and running four miles. Do what you have to do and accept that it will take some time to get into shape enough to see results. You’ve heard it all before, I’m sure. Take the stairs instead of the elevator. Park so that you have to walk a ways to get where you are going. Join a gym or health club. Even if all you do is pant and wheeze on a treadmill for 5 minutes, well, you have to start somewhere.

Eventually, you will start to see a difference. Your capacity for exercise will increase. Keep repeating this mantra: “Keep doing what you’re doing and it will pay off.” You may have to repeat this many times to believe it.

The frustrating part is that your body will resist an increase in metabolism for some time. Usually about three weeks or so. A true example: When I entered Army Basic Training in 1987, I was about 40 pounds overweight (~210). They put me on the “fat-boy” program. No sweets, no fats, no red meat. Also, extra running (yes, I remember those road-guard vests). Total weight loss for me after 1 month: 5 pounds. 5 pounds!!! Are you kidding me? All that effort and denial for a lousy 5 pounds? Next month’s weight loss: 35 pounds. Finally, the stasis of my metabolism had been broken. The battle was won and victory was mine. (Full disclosure; I’ve gone through a couple of swings like this, so yes, I do know how hard it is to be consistent. Right now I am at the wrong end of one of these swings. :() And yes, age does make this process more difficult.

One of the bonuses of exercise, for me at least, was the ability to eat anything and everything and still keep trim. At one point I was running 4 miles every afternoon. 4 miles in less than 28 minutes. That is a fast clip, my friends. Afterward, I would play very competitive raquetball (like capacitor said, an excellent exercise, if your knees can handle it). Sometimes I would swim. I ate like a hog, mostly beer and restaurant food (I was in grad school, and didn’t know beans about cooking). My weight stabalized at 160 and didn’t start to creep up on me until I stopped the exercise without changing my eating habits. (Bad! Bad!)

It looks like I’ve come full circle. Back to eating habits. Find the balance that is right for you. You can exercise like a mo’fo and allow yourself a little more leeway on what you can eat; or you can exercise moderately and be more strict on caloric intake. Everyone will find a different balance.

Oh, just to add. Weight training is good as well. You don’t have to try for the bodybuilder look. Just try to increase your strength by adding muscle. Not only will you firm up, but muscle burns calories whereas fat does not. So, if you increase your muscle, you will burn more calories throughout the day; yes, even if you are watching TV.

My advice is not to even weigh yourself. Instead, judge your progress on how your clothes fit. There is very little in this world more satisfying than having formerly tight clothing just about fall off of you. Oh, to walk around in loose pants and feel good! No more of that 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag feeling.

(I’m sorry not to contribute to the carb/protein/fat/Atkins/Zone/etc. debate. I am not qualified to give an informed opinion on specific diets.)

This is the longest post I think I’ve contributed, and my feeling is that very few will muck through it. For those of you that have, I really hope you take some of this to heart. Dying of obesity is a horrible way to go, and watching someone you love die this way is, well, let me just say that it is a waste. It doesn’t have to be.

Malcolm Gladwell did a really interesting review of the current state of affairs in diet and obesity research in The New Yorker a couple of years ago. It’s not particularly encouraging, but it does a good job of pointing out the problems with and inanities in most of the popular diet gurus’ books, as well as suggesting which current avenues of research are most likely to show progress in the near future.

I started my magical mystery weight loss when I was at close to 260 pounds. (I’m a husky guy anyway)

First, I stopped eating fast food of any kind. Within 6 months, I had dropped to 230. And stayed there. I hate when that happens.

Then I started the High protein diet. It’s pretty boring, but you don’t go hungry at all. I am now down to 210 lbs and holding.

The biggest benefit for me is that my blood sugar levels have been much lower. But I had a high cholesterol test for the first time. I hear that is supposed to happen at first. I’m having it checked again in 3 months.

But buying clothes is fun again.

Sugarbusters.

I lost 70lbs in 5 months.

It was easy to go on, and had a wonderful side-effect: I used to get heartburn all the time. Now I never get heartburn.

Check it out, I’m glad I did. Before I started Sugarbusters, I was trying a low fat diet, lifting weights 3 times a week, and various cardio exercises 3 times a week. It didn’t help too much.

After starting the diet, without changing my exercise schedule at all, the fat almost magically started melting away.

My parents (who are both food scientists) swear by a diet which does not limit intake of carbs or proteins, but says that consumption of these should be kept separate and at least two hours apart. This is the e-mail my dad wrote me about it:

"You know, I kind of put Mom and me on a low carbohydrate diet and it is working beautifully. There are a few keys to this diet that make it work.

  1. When you have carbohydrates try to make it complex grains or other complex carbohydrates. These do not trigger insulin as much as starches and flours or sugars, particularly.
  2. When you have carbo’s, do not have them with dishes that contain fats or protein as the latter two just get absorbed while the insulin madly converts those starches and sugars making the excess go directly to fat.
  3. You can eat all the protein you want if you are having it with veggies. You can eat your carbo’s with veggies. In fact, veggies can be eaten at any time and all you want.
  4. Be sure to drink lots of water when you begin moving to higher protein intakes.
  5. If you have a carbo meal, like breakfast, do not eat fats or proteins for at least 2 hours after that. Likewise, If you have a fat and protein (along with veggies of course) dinner, do not have carbo’s afterwards for at least 2 hours.
  6. If you eat fruit, do it by itself. Fruit also triggers insulin, but the high fiber in fruit will allow the insulin to be blocked, so keep it separate.

I think that’s enough rules. If you give this a try, I guarantee that you will lose 5 pounds in a week. If you stay with it, you can slim to where you want to be and lower your risk of Type II diabetes adult onset and lose weight. You’ll feel more energetic and really notice the difference in your general body health and energy quickly."

Nimue’s dad wrote:

I hate to break the news to him, but starches and flours are complex carbohydrates. “Complex” does not mean the same thing as “unrefined” or “with the bran layers still attached.” It refers to the complexity of the carbohydrate molecules. Sugars are simple carbohydrates, but pretty much all other carbs are complex.

I noticed this too… I didn’t lose any weight, and I felt like hammered crap for those three weeks. Then it was like someone turned the light switch on- I became very energetic & started losing weight at about 2 lbs a week.

Oh man… that’s so true. Isn’t it appalling when you get an old set of pants & realize that you used to fit into them tightly, yet now they’re almost 4 pants sizes too big?

Here’s another thing I did- if I felt hungry, I looked at it as a positive thing, not a negative one. It meant that I definitely wasn’t eating too much. If being hungry really bothers you, drink a bunch of water- it’ll fill you up.

I know nothing about the various diets.

I think divemaster knows whereof s/he speaks.
Different people work differently. Figure out what works for you. Don’t try to diet - figure out something you can live with from now on.
Fer instance…I can’t do a low-pro diet. I tend towards blood sugar problems. If I eat carbs & no fat/protein, I crash soon after. Dr & nutritionist say 8 gms protein every 3 hours is the trick. I’m getting FATTER!! :eek:

But that’s because (1) I still eat too much; (2) I still eat too much crap; (3) I’m not getting enough exercise.

I have plans, oh yes, plans to change the world. Or at least my habits! :slight_smile:
Best of luck, Stoidela!

I just try not to eat processed crap. When you look at they typical American diet today (apologies to non-American posters), it’s just full of not only the Big Three evils - fat, salt, & refined sugar - but also stuff that I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT IS. Now, I’ve had 2 semesters of Basic Chem & 2 of Organic Chem. I figure if something has an ingredient that I don’t recognize, it has got to be something pretty funky. Plus fresh food tastes a lot better…I mean, which would you rather have, a slice of homemade chocolate cake or a Ding Dong? It’s a no-brainer.
I do not obsess about calories and would rather live the rest of my life without my left arm than without butter. However, a big issue that many people don’t think about is how ridiculously large portion sizes have become! When I go out to eat, I generally find that what they call one meal is really two or three. It’s out of control!!
I don’t have an exercise regimen because gyms are too expensive & working out on my own is boring, but I never miss a chance to get in a little physical activity, either. I do not have a car so I walk home from work every day, & I do all the housework & yardwork, so that keeps me pretty busy.
I refuse to starve myself so I can look like those animated skeletons on Friends or Ally McBoobless. (I am 5’4" and 115 pounds, which means I am much too fat to even set foot in Southern California.) I am somewhat genetically fortunate in that I tend to store my weight on top (yay! boobs!) and on bottom (baby got back! yeah), but my waist is small and my thighs are cellulite-free as of this writing (but I’m 24, so I know my stay of execution has already lasted much too long…) so I’m happy with things just the way they are.

I advocate low carb dieting. Such a diet is primarily aimed at anyone with an insulin-related weight problem (hypoglycemics and diabetics).

Theory is, carbs are a high-octane fuel, in that they pack alot of energy in every bite. On a high-carb diet, you don’t need to eat too much to maintain a high energy level, and this is why most people over-eat. Extra carbs get stored first as glycogen, with the rest being converted to fat.

Fat is a pathetic fuel source. In the absence of carbs, the body first depletes its 2-day supply of glycogen and then begins burning not only the fat eaten, but also the fat stored (because fat is a low-octane fuel).

(Smokers, incidentally, have their glycogen constantly being dumped by nicotene, which adds to why they gain weight when they stop getting nicotene and their eating habits don’t change.)

I feel better on high-protein, low-carb, and lose weight faster. The biggest problem is I’m a chocoholic, and there are few things to drink. Atkins also insists on no caffeine, but I love coffee (caffeine cranks the metabolism artificially, where the diet is supposed to be taking over).

But, as many have said, this diet WILL NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE, but might be successful to the insulin-challenged.

Not all carbohydrates are created equal, as someone earlier pointed out. What is the general opinion here on diets base on the glycemic index? Given diabetes related examples here, you’d think people would support a diet which uses slow-release of carbohydrates.

On a side note, most of my diet since I’ve been in college has consisted of pasta or rice or potatoes.
I don’t eat meat, and while I eat vegetables and get protein from nuts n peanut butter n such, I’d say I’m on an almost completely carbohydrate diet.
I do eat dairy products, but not often enough to matter much.

I weigh 145 and seem unable to gain weight no matter how much I eat or excercise.

Furthermore, most vegetarians eat a lot more carbohydrates then protein, and I’ve never met an overweight vegetarian.
(they usually live longer too)

Wrath,

For a really decadent chocolate indulgence w/out much sugar, Lindt Extra Dark is the way to go. Of course, this only applies if you can stop yourself from eating the whole bar. :smiley:

I know a number of overweight vegetarians (and of course, many who aren’t). Last time I saw my ob/gyn she commented on how much weight I’d lost (50 lbs). She asked me how I did it, I told her “low carb - Atkins.” She said something like “Obviously it works for you. You know, a lot of my vegetarian patients are overweight.”

The bottom line is that no one program will work for everyone; you have to find an eating and exercise program you can live with the rest of your life. If someone asks I’ll tell them what worked for me, but I would presume to tell them it will work for them.