Hijacked Bus and an Innnocent's Death

Have you ever been in an emergency situation? I haven’t; but in simulated emergencies there is often a thing or two you overlook. Maybe you picked out a landing site and for whatever reason didn’t notice it was unsuitable until you were committed to it. It happens.

I’m not a mind-reader, but I can guess what happens in a pilot’s mind who elects to land on a freeway. In an airplane, you need a long straight place to put down. If not an airport, then another long stretch of concrete looks like a viable option. How about a freeway? Cars are moving along at 70 mph. You see a gap. A Cessna lands at around 65 mph. You could merge right in and the following cars will stop. Since you’re slower than the cars ahead, they won’t get hit. Is it a good plan? If it’s a choice of trying to merge into traffic or putting down on someone’s house or a crowded schoolyard, it seems so.

But there are variables. What happens if you honk your horn at someone? Have you ever swooped your car into another lane right behind someone? Have you seen what happens if there’s a cop on the road? People hit their brakes. Now, your plan is to merge into traffic. It should work. You’re feet from touchdown, when the driver(s) of the car(s) ahead of you see(s) you in his rearview mirror. Naturally if someone is gaining on him, he slams on his brakes. Your plane hits the car. Is it your fault? It was a perfectly workable plan. Had the person in front of you not stopped, you wouldn’t have hit.

What if they freeway is crowded? You have a choice of hitting the crowded school, or you give the freeway your best shot. The goal is to save your own life, while simultaneously trying not to hurt anyone on the ground.

As Burns wrote, “The best-laid plans of mice and men aft gang agley.” Life presents choices, and often the choices are all bad. It’s called “the horns of a delimma” or “the lesser of two evils” or “damned if you do and damned if you don’t”. The only option you don’t have is the option not to choose an option. If you choose Plan A, then you’re criticized for not choosing Plan B; and vice versa.

What about the bus? Suppose the driver refused to drive and the man killed her? How do we know that it would not have turned into a different kind of hostage situation, where he would kill the passengers one-by-one? And then a SWAT team takes over and there is collateral damage? If the driver refused to drive, then many more people might have been killed. But we don’t know. There is no way to know. The driver was given a bad choice: To certainly (in her mind) be killed, or to drive. While a collision might have been considered likely had the driver been in a state to consider it, the likelihood of a fatal collision is not a foregone conclusion. All the driver knew was that if she drove, she would live a few more minutes. She made a choice. That choice took the life of a bystander. Is it her fault? Would she have hit the mini-van if she hadn’t been forced to drive? I don’t think so.

Maybe it was the mini-van driver’s fault. If she had been more attentive, she may not have put herself in a position to be hit. If she had taken appropriate evasive action, she could have removed herself from the situation. After all, aren’t people trained to be attentive, defensive, and to “leave themselves an ‘out’”? If she did not pay attention to the training, then it’s her own fault she got dead.

Or maybe it’s God’s fault. He could have prevented it.

Or maybe it’s just bad luck. “Men’s courses will foreshadow certain ends, to which, if persevered in, they must lead,” said Scrooge. “But if the courses be departed from, the ends will change.” If the mini-van driver had not gone out for that drive… If the hijacker had not gone over to the house of the man he shot… if a certain passenger had not been lat catching the bus, or had not ridden at all that day… If, if, if

Sometimes bad things happen.

The only one at fault for the death of the mini-van driver is the hijacker.

Monty:

Let’s face it by expressing yourself like so

(bolding added by me)

you used somewhat inflammatory speech, so you are going to get somewhat inflammatory responses like

Perhaps a less inflammatory way of stating would be “Does having a gun to your head remove any legal responsibility for causing the death of another person?”

Personally, I say no, it doesn’t. If you act in a reckless or criminal manner even under threat of death you need to take responsibility for those actions. Should the penalties be mitigated to some degree? Perhaps so since clearly any crime commited would lack intent.

I have been thinking about this all day, and I honestly can’t think of what kind of training they could reasonably have been expected to provide.

Take out the person with the gun? No way.
Talk him down? No way, this is a highly specialized law enforcement position!
Comply but do so safely? I am sure this is what she tried to do.
Not comply and get shot? Can you train somebody to accept this outcome.
Crash the bus? Well, from a self protection standpoint when being carjacked the smartest thing to do is to crash the car, but a bus is very different. There are few things you can safely crash it into. It can easily push most other vehicles out of the way and can easily cause structural damages to some buildings.

I think he one choice was to comply and to drive as safely as possible until she ran out of fuel or was otherwise disable by law enforcement personnel.

I marginally side with her actions only because I wasn’t there. Presumably she tried not to destroy the other vehicle, perhaps she tried to push it out of the way. If she rammed it at full speed making no attempt to move it out of the way, then I would say she acted excessively recklessly.

Glitch: Thank you.

Sailor: Thanks for the majority of your post. Guess what I think of the very end of it.

Practically the only things she can possibly do was either:

do some kind of bus driver trick to make the bus stall, and hope for the best; or

do as she did.

Please tell me exactly how the driver is supposed to know that by obeying a man who is threatening her life, she is going to ultimately wind up driving into an occupied minivan. I don’t know why you need to lose your temper over this.

Gee, Spoof, maybe, just mabye it’s because I posted a question asking for some suggestioins and someone else appears to think it’s okay to run over “no matter how many baby carriages” and folks such as you jump my stuff and post the crap you posted in the pit thread instead of taking that person to task.

Maybe that’s it.

I again refer you to my last remark to you in said pit thread.

I don’t have a strong opinion here, but I think the driver probably did the best she could in a bad situation.

MTA buses in LA are equipped with silent alarms with a Lo-Jack type system. The police were in pursuit which is why there were such high speeds through a busy area of downtown Los Angeles.

More people here are blaming the police for forcing the chase. In the land of the high speed chase here, the police usually don’t provoke chases where any innocent bystanders get hurt. In this case, according to the police, they felt that since there was an armed man threatening the lives of many people, they had to take strong action.

Also, the suspect is not only charged with felony murder, but also with some hate crime charges because the man boarded the bus to tell a black passenger that he shouldn’t be socializing with a Latino passenger.

I shall now “wimp out” of this thread. Feel free to castigate/discuss/ponder as you will.

And yet you fail to respond to how the woman is supposed to know the actions will inevitably result in death.

Congratulations. I take it that you had no intent on debating this topic at all.

Big surprise. :rolleyes:

Have any of you seen the video of this accident? I’ve seen it several times. It looks to me like the bus was forced to run a red light. And the van, not seeing the bus running the red light, (as I am sure it was going waaay too fast for surface streets) ran into it. Has anyone else seen this? Do I have it about right? I’m pretty sure I do.

Just being nit-picky. From my perspective, the bus did NOT plow into the van. It doesn’t make the hijacker less responsible for the death of the minivan driver, of course. But I feel an important detail is being left out - the bus driver didn’t knowingly plow into an occupied car, resulting in a death. I’m sure the bus driver was hoping that everyone in the intersection would be able to get out of the way in time and not hit the speeding bus.

Bah! Details! Who needs those?!?

[hijack]
Spoofe, did you do a name change? Or is this another Spoofe? I was gone all last week…

What happened to Bo Diddly? Or is that the straight line I’m supposed to feed you…? :smiley:

[/hijack]