Monty, you stupid fucknut!

[Odesio]

I’ve never started a Pit Thread before but I figured I might as well give it a shot. This is in response to Monty’s thread in GD about a bus driver held hostage, forced to drive, and accidently killing another drive in the process.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1300350#post1300350

Originally posted by Monty**
Perhaps a better solution would’ve been to flood the engine, throw the vehicle into the wrong gear, immediately drive it into unoccupied vehicles - or something along those lines.

**

You might be right, fuck face, but hindsight is 20/20. If you’re not prepared to deal with someone who is armed it can be pretty damn tough to come up with solutions. Ever had a gun pointed at your head? Do you realize how scary that is?

Originally posted by Monty**
Personally, I’m appalled that the driver did what SHE did instead of doing something, anything, to keep the bus from colliding with other OCCUPIED vehicles.

**

Asshole, I’m sure she did something like actually try to avoid hitting other people while some asshole was pointing a gun at her head. Maybe you’ve never driven with someone pointing a gun at your head but I imagine it can be quite difficult.

Originally posted by Monty**
Actually, from the news footage I saw, he could’ve ditched the vehicle in the water - well away from people on the beach. And it looked like that stretch of beach wasn’t mostly empty.

My personal opinion is that anyone who pilots an aircraft ought to assume the responsibility of sacrificing his life in the event of a wreck rather than endanger those on the ground.

**

Well it is a good thing that festering boils such as yourself don’t actually make the rules. Your idea of how things work is amazing. You remove all blame from the guy with the gun and put them on the bus driver. What kind of a piece of shit human being puts the blame on someone who was the victim?

Do us all a favor. If you’re ever in any kind of physical danger then don’t call for help. An amulance rushing to your aid puts the rest of us in danger and that’s just not right.

Originally posted by Monty**
Yep. You’re insensitive and unaware of reality yourself. Reread my OP and you will see that I asked some questions - I didn’t suggest anything.

**

You’re the insensitive boob here. You’re acting like the bus driver is at fault. The bus driver had a gun to her head. Was she suppose to just let the guy shoot her?

Originally posted by Monty**
Yes. I think they should. I think that any employer who has his employees interact with the public should have some kind of policy, and training in that policy, on how said employer expects said employees to act in the event of an emergency. Kind of like how my local credit union trains the tellers on how to deal with bank robbers.

**

Well that’s jut plain silly now isn’t it? Do you have any idea what the risk of a bus driver or a delivery driver runs of being held hostage? What are the cost/benefit ration of such things? Should every employee everywhere have training on what to do when someone comes to work with a gun? Maybe we should just deputize everyone that way we can all stop crimes as they occur!!!

Marc

[Monty]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
I’ve never started a Pit Thread before but I figured I might as well give it a shot. This is in response to Monty’s thread in GD about a bus driver held hostage, forced to drive, and accidently killing another drive in the process.

So far you’re still based in the world of the real. Sadly you left it quickly.

Originally posted by Monty
Perhaps a better solution would’ve been to flood the engine, throw the vehicle into the wrong gear, immediately drive it into unoccupied vehicles - or something along those lines.

You might be right, fuck face, but hindsight is 20/20.

So you admit I might be right and you’re bitching about it and to top it off you call me names? Fucking amazing. The whole purpose of 20/20 hindsight in certain instances is trying to determine what “shoulda oughta coulda” been done in that instance for the sake of doing the right/better/more productive/SAFER thing if that instance is repeated in the future.

If you’re not prepared to deal with someone who is armed it can be pretty damn tough to come up with solutions.

Which is why personnel in certain professions get some kind of training in that.

Ever had a gun pointed at your head? Do you realize how scary that is?

Yep. Twice. Both times in San Diego. The thing is that before I got robbed, the Navy prepped me on what to do in case of emergency of that nature. It was part of my ship’s “liberty safety” training. I’m still here today, which of course you apparently think is a mistake. And before you ask: No, I was not in one of those areas said training tells you to stay out of.

Originally posted by Monty
Personally, I’m appalled that the driver did what SHE did instead of doing something, anything, to keep the bus from colliding with other OCCUPIED vehicles.

Asshole, I’m sure she did something like actually try to avoid hitting other people while some asshole was pointing a gun at her head. Maybe you’ve never driven with someone pointing a gun at your head but I imagine it can be quite difficult.

I’m sure it’s difficult. But I have the right to have the feeling of being appalled that she killed someone. Maybe I see the idea of sacrificing oneself before sacrificing someone else as a good thing.

Ane yes, I would more than likely not have a problem if the other driver had not sustained any injuries. The point is the other driver died.

Originally posted by Monty
Actually, from the news footage I saw, he could’ve ditched the vehicle in the water - well away from people on the beach. And it looked like that stretch of beach wasn’t mostly empty.

My personal opinion is that anyone who pilots an aircraft ought to assume the responsibility of sacrificing his life in the event of a wreck rather than endanger those on the ground.

Well it is a good thing that festering boils such as yourself don’t actually make the rules. Your idea of how things work is amazing. You remove all blame from the guy with the gun and put them on the bus driver. What kind of a piece of shit human being puts the blame on someone who was the victim?

I did not remove all blame. I’m asking if the driver should or ought to share in the blame for killing the minivan driver, not in the blame for any other crimes committed by the cretin with the gun. I do not remove any of the blame from the cretin with the gun.

And for those who haven’t read or can’t be bothered to read the GD thread, I was specifically talking about plane wrecks that were headed for people on the ground and not just plane wrecks in general. That’s kind of obvious in the GD thread.

Do us all a favor. If you’re ever in any kind of physical danger then don’t call for help.

So you’re wishing I die?

An amulance rushing to your aid puts the rest of us in danger and that’s just not right.

Bullshit. Ambulances, when driven properly, don’t put people at risk any more than other vehicles properly driven do - well they don’t put people who are paying attention to the road and the vehicles around them at risk. Now if the driver has the complete lack of mental skills you evidence, then that particular ambulance very well may be driving without lights flashing and siren blaring and you might have a point. But so long as you’re not an ambulance driver, I think the roads are safe for the moment.

Originally posted by Monty
Yep. You’re insensitive and unaware of reality yourself. Reread my OP and you will see that I asked some questions - I didn’t suggest anything.

You’re the insensitive boob here. You’re acting like the bus driver is at fault. The bus driver had a gun to her head. Was she suppose to just let the guy shoot her?

And thus the thread I started in GD. I’m asking what she could’ve done. Personally, I don’t accept killing people who just happen to be in the way as part of the solution of saving your own life.

Originally posted by Monty
Yes. I think they should. I think that any employer who has his employees interact with the public should have some kind of policy, and training in that policy, on how said employer expects said employees to act in the event of an emergency. Kind of like how my local credit union trains the tellers on how to deal with bank robbers.

Well that’s jut plain silly now isn’t it? Do you have any idea what the risk of a bus driver or a delivery driver runs of being held hostage? What are the cost/benefit ration of such things? Should every employee everywhere have training on what to do when someone comes to work with a gun? Maybe we should just deputize everyone that way we can all stop crimes as they occur!!!

Last I checked, folks already have the right to make citizen’s arrests. Doing so might get you killed in many situations, so I really don’t recommend it. But giving them a short blurb when hired along with all the stuff about sexual harrassment, equal opportunity and the rest might be of some use. Note that I said might be.

What’s the cost of five minutes indoctrination? Add it to the rest of the new employee hiring briefing.

BTW, MGibson: thanks for completely glossing over my using the expression “perhaps” in the other thread.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Monty *
**
So you admit I might be right and you’re bitching about it and to top it off you call me names? Fucking amazing. The whole purpose of 20/20 hindsight in certain instances is trying to determine what “shoulda oughta coulda” been done in that instance for the sake of doing the right/better/more productive/SAFER thing if that instance is repeated in the future.

**

I said maybe. Maybe the gunman would have just shot her through the head. Difficult to know until after the fact.

**
Which is why personnel in certain professions get some kind of training in that.

**

Bus drivers? Perhaps, as part of all our drivers license requirements, we should all take such courses. We all run the risk of having our vehicles hijacked.

**
I’m sure it’s difficult. But I have the right to have the feeling of being appalled that she killed someone. Maybe I see the idea of sacrificing oneself before sacrificing someone else as a good thing.

**

If she had killed someone you’d have a reasonable reason to be appalled. But 100% of the blame lies with the gunman.

**
Ane yes, I would more than likely not have a problem if the other driver had not sustained any injuries. The point is the other driver died.

**

Yep, it was unfortunate that the gunman forced her to drive in such an unsafe manner. And by the way are you changing your mind? You complained that the airplane pilot put innocent lives in danger by landing on the beach. Wouldn’t you have had a problem with the bus driver putting all those people on public roads in danger with her driving?

**
I did not remove all blame. I’m asking if the driver should or ought to share in the blame for killing the minivan driver, not in the blame for any other crimes committed by the cretin with the gun. I do not remove any of the blame from the cretin with the gun.

**

I admit it you’re right, you didn’t remove all blame from the gunman. However I think you’re placing undue blame on the driver of the vehicle.

orginally posted by Monty**
Personally, I’m appalled that the driver did what SHE did instead of doing something, anything, to keep the bus from colliding with other OCCUPIED vehicles.

**

How can you be dismayed at the actions of the driver? She was scared out of her wits. A lot of people with guns pointed at their heads get that way. I think her actions were totally reasonable.

**
And for those who haven’t read or can’t be bothered to read the GD thread, I was specifically talking about plane wrecks that were headed for people on the ground and not just plane wrecks in general. That’s kind of obvious in the GD thread.

**

Yep, but then perhaps landing in the water decreases the chances of the pilot walking (swimming) away with his life. Did anybody at the beach happen to notice a place that was coming suspicously close to the ground? Did anyone get hurt? Because if not then I don’t know why his actions bothered you.

**
So you’re wishing I die?

**

If any action which might preserve your life poses any amount of risk to other human beings, yes. What right do you have to endanger another person’s right simply so that you can live?

**
Bullshit. Ambulances, when driven properly, don’t put people at risk any more than other vehicles properly driven do - well they don’t put people who are paying attention to the road and the vehicles around them at risk.

**

At the very least it puts the ambulance drivers at risk because of all those people who don’t pay attention. It might even put me at risk because other motorist don’t always observe the proper rules for allowing an emergency vehicle to pass.

**
And thus the thread I started in GD. I’m asking what she could’ve done. Personally, I don’t accept killing people who just happen to be in the way as part of the solution of saving your own life.

**

As a general rule I’ll agree with you. But when someone’s pointing a gun in your face you don’t follow general rules. If someone held a gun to my head and told me to try to get away from the police then there’s a good chance that I’m going to follow his orders. And I’m going to do my best to ensure that I don’t get shot and I don’t run into anybody and cause an accident.

But it takes a special kind of jerk to be appalled at the actions of that bus driver.

**
Last I checked, folks already have the right to make citizen’s arrests. Doing so might get you killed in many situations, so I really don’t recommend it. But giving them a short blurb when hired along with all the stuff about sexual harrassment, equal opportunity and the rest might be of some use. Note that I said might be.

What’s the cost of five minutes indoctrination? Add it to the rest of the new employee hiring briefing.

**

What’s the point? HOw much of pre/post hire blurbs do you remember?

**
BTW, MGibson: thanks for completely glossing over my using the expression “perhaps” in the other thread. **

Yes, and thanks for showing us how you really feel by being “appalled” at the bus driver’s actions and “not thinking that it was ok to kill others so you can live.” It was pretty obvious you already came to a conclusion.

Marc

[MandaJo]

This is how I look at it: the bus driver decided that the possibility that she might hurt someone was preferable to the certainty that she would have died. Deciding to follow the gunman’s orders in no way insured that some third party would die–it simply increased the probability. There are plenty of carjacking cases where people follow the orders of thier captors and no one gets hurt.

Ane yes, I would more than likely not have a problem if the other driver had not sustained any injuries. The point is the other driver died.

No, it isn’t the point. The quality of a decision can’t be judged by its outcome. Buying a lottery ticket is a stupod thing to do whether or not you win. By your logic, had she let the driver shoot her and then he, unable to drive a bus worth a damn, had run it into a busload of nuns and puppies, that would have been her fault as well–she shouldn’t have given in to the selfish desire to “be a hero” and instead should have done her best to keep a lethal weapon-a huge bus–out of the hands of someone obviously unable to weild it safely.

[SPOOFE]

Hey, Monty, can you teach me how to be clairvoyant, too?

[Una_Persson]

In a first-ever occurance here, I agree with MGibson.

It’s nice to think of people making decisions rationally as they have a gun in their face, the rapist corners them on a dark lonely road, their car is careening towards a crowd of children, or they are fighting the controls of a plane. But real life for most people is “Oh shittttt!!! (close eyes and throw hands up)” Most people, myself included, do not have the ingrained survival or snap-judgement skills needed in times of disaster. Unfortunate, but true, and there is little to be done about it.

[Monty]

originially posted by MGibson
If any action which might preserve your life poses any amount of risk to other human beings, yes. What right do you have to endanger another person’s right simply so that you can live?

So it’s okay for the bus driver to to make the decision to preserve her life at the risk of other people’s but I should die? You incredible foolish hypocrite. It’s now becomee obvious that it’s not the actual issue of the hijacking that’s got you wound up, Gib, but rather you just want to bitch about me.

& Spoof: Blow it out your ass. I said nothing about clairvoyance or mind readiing or any of that other bullshit “magic” but I did fucking ASK what the driver could’ve done differently instead of sacrificing someone else to save her life.

[Monty]

Oh, and Gib, about your question if I’m changing my mind:

Well, yes, maybe. But you see, you asshole, you decided that instead of DEBATING THE FUCKING ISSUE, you’d just take cheap potshots. The whole idea of debate, IIRC, is to lay out the issues and see what’s a good solution to the question.

[MandaJo]

I did fucking ASK what the driver could’ve done differently instead of sacrificing someone else to save her life.

And I pointed out that she didn’t sacrifice someone else’s life, she risked someone else’s life. There is a difference.

[McMurphy]

So it’s okay for the bus driver to to make the decision to preserve her life at the risk of other people’s but I should die? You incredible foolish hypocrite.

I think MGibson meant that if it’s not ok for her (which is the position you seem to be taking) it’s not ok for you either.

BTW - Marc, I agree with you 110%

[TubaDiva]

Okay, everybody vented and feeling better now?

Hope so, 'cause I’m closing this thread.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator