Hillary Clinton, the 'Seinfeld' Candidate

The BBQ Pit
21

[QUOTE=mhendo]
I’m aware of that. But the key to your argument is that she does it all the time. The reason i made my observation, as you surely must have realised, is that Obama’s use of the term struck me as unusual, for him.

I’ve heard a few Obama speeches over the past months, and snippets of even more on news reports and on shows like The Daily Show, and i can’t recall ever hearing him use it before. If you have some examples contradicting my experience, i’d be happy to change my opinion on the matter.

Not only that, but there are ways to say “y’all” without giving it an extended Southern drawl. Obama didn’t just use the term, he used it in an accent clearly different from the one he normally uses.
[/QUOTE]
Well, he wouldn’t use it in a speech. I wouldn’t use it in a speech, and I use it natively. (Unless it was some kind of specialty speech, given to Southerners about something southern.) As far as an accent, I saw his use of it on the Daily Show, and I don’t know… Maybe I missed it, but I just didn’t find anything about it to be remarkable.

22

[QUOTE=Oakminster]
Ummmm…Oprah is from Mississippi.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know, but I wasn’t talking about where she was from. Note my use of the phrase “many blacks” in the post you referenced. Y’all is a part of AAVE (African American Vernacular English).

23

[QUOTE=Liberal]
Well, he wouldn’t use it in a speech.
[/quote]
Well, he did use it in a speech. I’m not sure what else to call the address he gave in Alabama.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
As far as an accent, I saw his use of it on the Daily Show, and I don’t know… Maybe I missed it, but I just didn’t find anything about it to be remarkable.
[/QUOTE]
Nothing remarkable, in and of itself. It’s just that it contained a lot more Southern drawl than one is accustomed to hearing from Obama.

I’ll reiterate my main point.

I have no problem with “y’all” as a part of speech. Nor do i have any problem with a Southern accent. But Barack Obama has been in a glaring public spotlight for quite a while now, and i’ve never (in speeches, interviews, anything) heard him use “y’all” or speak in anything even approaching a Southern accent before. Because of that, i think it’s reasonable to infer that he used these devices merely to try and seem more Southern with the people from Alabama. While i realize that this sort of political stunt isn’t new, it doesn’t mean i have to like it. And, if someone can show me previous uses of “y’all” by Obama, i’ll modify my position.

Sure you were. You said, specifically, that she was from Chicago.

Now, you also said that “Many blacks say “y’all” no matter where they live.” That’s true. But it’s just as true that many blacks don’t say “y’all.” And, until last week, Obama had always seemed to be one of those. So the question then becomes: did he say it just because he happened to be in Alabama, or have i just missed his previous use of the term?

24

[QUOTE=SparrowHawk]
No, he’s from Hawai’i. Not that we say y’all, or youse, either.
[/QUOTE]

He should be sayin’ “Da kine, bro”? (what exactly does that mean anyway? sounds like island-style valley girl “ya’ know” to this mainlander). But then people would be complaining about how he wasn’t really hawaiian and how dare he use that speak! Don’t even get me started on all the politicians who call the state across the river “Missourah”. :cool:

25

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Sure you were. You said, specifically, that she was from Chicago.
[/quote]
Nope. I said she was in — not from, in — Chicago. The only reason I mentioned Chicago at all is because that’s where Obama is currently. Blacks from all over say “y’all”. As I said, it’s standard AAVE.

Whether Obama uses it in his everyday life, I don’t know. But he has worked on a daily basis with underprivileged and politically disenfranchised blacks for years, and it is highly likely that he has had more than trivial exposure to it. It wouldn’t be a stretch to think he might have used it, if for nothing more than to facilitate communication and bonding. And I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he says it around the house. Finally, as I said, I would probably use it in a speech to Southerners about southern things, and that’s what he did.

26

[QUOTE=Liberal]
Whether Obama uses it in his everyday life, I don’t know. But he has worked on a daily basis with underprivileged and politically disenfranchised blacks for years, and it is highly likely that he has had more than trivial exposure to it. It wouldn’t be a stretch to think he might have used it, if for nothing more than to facilitate communication and bonding. And I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he says it around the house.
[/quote]
So, what you’re saying is that you don’t know whether he uses it on any regular basis, and you can’t demonstrate to me that he does. Fair enough.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Finally, as I said, I would probably use it in a speech to Southerners about southern things, and that’s what he did.
[/QUOTE]
Well, it’s a good thing this thread isn’t about you, then. I was complaining about what i saw as political opportunism. Why can’t you just be upfront and say that you disagree with me about that, instead of descending into a Liberal Interpra-Fest where everything gets defined based on how it relates to what you want to talk about?

27

[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
Not that I necessarily support her over the other democrats right now, but I think she’s being dismissed in this thread a bit facilely.
[/QUOTE]

It’s not like she’s new to the scene. Most of us have had plenty of time to form opinions about her.

28

[QUOTE=mhendo]
So, what you’re saying is that you don’t know whether he uses it on any regular basis, and you can’t demonstrate to me that he does. Fair enough.
[/quote]
That’s a part of what I’m saying. But that part is no different from what you’re saying. Because you don’t know either. But I’m adding that there is nothing unlikely about his saying it. And I gave reasons why. If you can think of some reasons why it might be likely that he doesn’t say it, feel free to offer them.

That’s so random, I have no idea how to respond to it.

29

“As a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball. But tonight I say: we must go upward, not downward! Forward, not backward! And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!”

First thing I thought of.

30

[QUOTE=Liberal]
That’s a part of what I’m saying. But that part is no different from what you’re saying. Because you don’t know either. But I’m adding that there is nothing unlikely about his saying it. And I gave reasons why. If you can think of some reasons why it might be likely that he doesn’t say it, feel free to offer them.
[/quote]
But, you see, this is another perfect example of your distortions.

I’ve already said that i’ve never seen him say it in any of the dozens of times i’ve seen him on TV. I acknowledge that i haven’t seen every speech he’s ever made, and if someone can show me that his Alabama usage was not unusual for him in his public appearances, i’ll happily concede the point. Because that’s what we’re talking about here: public appearances made as a part of his political career and his run for President.

You can talk all you want about what he might say at home or whatever, and i admit that i have no idea about how in talks in the privacy of his own home. But that’s completely unrelated to the issue i’m talking about here. Public appearances like this by prominent national politicians are carefully thought out by the politicians and their minders, and if someone like Obama uses terms and voice inflections in Alabama that he doesn’t use in the normal course of his public life, then i submit that it’s extremely likely to have been a conscious decision on his part.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
That’s so random, I have no idea how to respond to it.
[/QUOTE]
Really? It’s a surprise to you that someone might accuse you of distorting an argument to conform to your own predilections and preferences? I guess that must never have happened on these Boards before.

31

It has often been remarked about Seinfeld that all of the main characters weren’t very likeable.

We may have found the perfect metaphor for the Clinton campaign.

32

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
It has often been remarked about Seinfeld that all of the main characters weren’t very likeable.

We may have found the perfect metaphor for the Clinton campaign.
[/QUOTE]

And everyone said Bush was a likeable guy and the type of person they’d like to have a beer with. That worked out well.

33

Well, I think it’s unpatriotic to vote for anyone who’s name sounds like Osoma.

:: D&R ::

34

"I’m not black.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that."

35

Hillary was married to a guy who was a governor of a southern state. In Arkansas the people have been known for speaking with a southern type drawl sometimes.Get off the accent children it was about one line in a speech. You will have to do a lot better than that to get people who don’t worship at the alter of Fox News. It was nothing.
I believe it is early in the race . Do you really expect final positions to be announced. You have to save something for debates and a lot of press and TV time to come . Back off a little.

36

[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
Senator Obama is from Illinois, is he not? I used to work in an all-night diner with a young lady from Chicago. The plural pronoun for the second person is “youse.”
[/QUOTE]
Illinois is bigger than Chicagoland. I’m from Du Quoin (Never heard of it? It’s near where the Ohio river meets the Mississippi. Think ‘North Kentucky’.) and people there are a lot more likely to say “y’all” and eat fried catfish (Everyone eats fried catfish. Only a freak doesn’t eat fried catfish. ;)) than say “youse” and eat pastrami on rye.

(Edited to add: My dad’s from Skokie. I don’t know Chicago very well, but I do know it’s very different from far downstate Illinois.)

37

[QUOTE=bigbabysweets2000]
Well, I think it’s unpatriotic to vote for anyone who’s name sounds like Osoma.

:: D&R ::
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s unpatriotic to vote for anyone who has no experience to qualify her/him for the job of POTUS; I don’t care if the guy says y’all or youse or youse guys or peeps, he ain’t got the experience. Hillary at least has had the opportunity to study with a master politician; one who could get stuff done. Even so, I don’t think she is electable, southern accent or not.

I want to vote for someone who will plug away at a job until the goal is reached, not someone who promises to change everything for the better overnight. Unless the Dems can field a much better candidate than the two current stars, the Repubs will keep the office till hell ices over and won’t that be fun?

38

I grew up in the D.C. area, but picked up “y’all” from my Kansas cousins while growing up, and more recently have picked up usages like “might could” from my wife and her family. Like most people do, I tend to match my language to a certain extent to that of the people I’m speaking with. I don’t think that’s any big deal, as long as you’re not pretending to be an entirely different person in the process.

39

[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
I agree that she has a public image of being a consummate politician with absolutely no real convictions. But:

(a) how much of that is what we believe just because we’ve heard that so often from so many different sources? Isn’t that exactly what her enemies want us to believe?
[/quote]
I don’t think Hillary’s without convictions; what I have observed is that she’s not willing to stick her neck out very far for very much.

She has said in interviews that the failure of Hillarycare in 1994 left an impact on her. And it shows. She wants Bush to end the Iraq war during his Administration, but we’d all like a pony, and she’s doing little to take the lead in forcing Bush to do so, which is the only way that’ll happen. “If he doesn’t end it, then I will” when she’s President, doesn’t amount to very much. Most Americans would like us to be out of combat in Iraq by next year, not 2010. She and Obama are both in the Senate, but Obama’s the one using that position to get out in front on this issue.

Similarly on universal health care. Edwards has put forth a reasonably detailed plan that he’ll try to get through Congress early in his Presidency if elected. Hillary says she wants universal health care by the end of her second term - ten years away - but of course no specifics.

But we know where she stands on violent video games. Profiles in courage, huh?

Yes and no. He was an excellent executive, in terms of getting the Federal government to do very well the things it was already supposed to be doing.

But after 1994, he pretty much gave up taking the country in any positive direction, instead fighting a rearguard battle to limit the damage the Gingrich-DeLay Congress was doing. And he also abdicated his role in setting a direction for the Democratic Party, leaving it without a positive message for partisans to rally around and offer as an alternative to the GOP message which, if misleading (IMHO) was certainly clear.

I remember a thread I started here after the 2002 midterms, along the lines of “Memo to Democrats: You Can’t Beat Something With Nothing.” Clinton had plenty of opportunity during his second term (other than during 1998, of course) to articulate a message for his party, so that Dems would have ‘something’ to stack up against the GOP message. He didn’t, and that’s a good part of the reason why the Dems were still in such disarray in 2002 and beyond.

I think Hillary’s more of the same. Meanwhile, the Dems did pretty well in 2006, partly because they started taking some stands. The political map has changed, and the country’s ready for Dems who will take stands on Iraq, global warming, universal health care, and other major issues. But for Hillary, it’s still 1996, and she’s still trying to win by playing smallball.

40

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Public appearances like this by prominent national politicians are carefully thought out by the politicians and their minders, and if someone like Obama uses terms and voice inflections in Alabama that he doesn’t use in the normal course of his public life, then i submit that it’s extremely likely to have been a conscious decision on his part.
[/QUOTE]
Then why are you arguing with me? That’s the same thing I said, just put a different way. But now the question is, what is wrong with tayloring your speech to your audience, so long as it isn’t something like making a campaign promise to one audience and then promising the opposite to another? Like I said (twice or three times), I wouldn’t ordinarilly use “y’all” in a speech, but if it were a speech to Southerners involving something southern (like landmark locations in the struggle for civil rights), I wouldn’t hesitate to use it. A Yankee talking to those people and saying “you guys” or “youse” is going to encounter what Northerners call “Southern Hospitality” — the quiet rustling of paper fans, a cough or two, polite applause, and several whispers of “bless his heart”.