That’s not just a Trenchoat of Establishmentarianism, it’s a Trenchcoat of Establishmentarianism +4!
You’re right. You shouldn’t vote at all, because certainly, you don’t share any of Trump’s positions either as Bernie and Trump couldn’t be further apart without a spaceship involved.
I’d suggest you wake up on November 8th, and spend the day talking to Jack Daniels because I’m betting you’re going to have a really shitty day.
For those frustrated by the Berniots, here’s a bit of desperately needed humor, courtesy of Alexandra Petri.
And, of course, one should probably be careful as to what rises from those ashes. It may not be the social democratic revolution that some on the left hope for.
Pull up a chair, young’uns and let me tell you what ideological purity gets you.
1964 – The conservative wing of the Republican overpowered the establishment and got Barry Goldwater nominated. He lost to LBJ in a landslide and four years later, the Republicans got Richard Nixon.
1968 – After the assassination of Robert Kennedy, progressive Democrats couldn’t stomach Hubert Humphrey. As a result, the entire nation got Richard Nixon.
1980 – Ted Kennedy challenged Jimmy Carter for the nomination and snubbed Carter after Carter won. The Kennedy supporters sat on their hands and were rewarded with Ronald Reagan.
1992 – Conservative Republicans decided Bush the Elder was a tax-raising traitor to the conservative cause and sat on their hands. They were rewarded with eight years of Bill Clinton.
2000 – Gore v. Bush v. Nader.
So go ahead. Be ideologically pure. Prepare to live with the consequences.
Ah, the platforms! The list of promises that no candidate has ever or will ever visit again after it has done its job and gotten them elected.
Hillary talks a decent game. But her record belies her pretty words. If only we had to read a platform and trust the candidates to follow through! That would make this election a lot easier. As it is we both know that both candidates are inveterate liars. Taking them at their word is a mistake. So you can’t go pointing to Hillary’s platform and expect that to mean anything. You might as well ask us to read the instructions to Candyland for all the relevance it has to what Hillary will actually do in office.
And the Clinton campaign thanks me for not voting Trump! If not voting for Hillary is a vote for Trump, and not voting for Trump is a vote for Hillary, then it all cancels out and I can vote for neither without guilt! Thanks for the encouragement.
Yeah, the notion that if we elect a radical republican that will heighten the contradictions and lead to a progressive revolution is fucking stupid.
I mean, really really stupid.
So the problem with people today is that they’re not uncomfortable enough for a revolution. You want a revolution, so you want people to be more uncomfortable? Seriously, that’s your plan?
Thing is, a revolutionary minded citizenry is highly unlikely to have a progressive majority. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but the problem is that there are lots of people who aren’t progressive, and if things get more uncomfortable for them are they going to become more progressive? Or are they going to double down on their support for people like Trump?
If there’s a revolution tomorrow the progressives are vastly outnumbered. I mean, if the progressives were the majority today you wouldn’t need a revolution, would you? You could just vote for progressive candidates. But it turns out in America in 2016 the Republicans have a majority in Congress, they have a majority in governors (31-18), they control most state legistatures.
Take a look at this map, does this look like the map of a country that is on the verge of a progressive revolution: List of United States state legislatures - Wikipedia
Oh, the establishment has rigged things so the progressive majority can’t get progressives elected? Yes, and? If you want a revolution then the progressive majority is going to have to be strong enough to take down the establishment, yes? So how about you start getting people to vote for progressive candidates? Organize, march, get out the vote, support actual candidates who can actually get elected. And not just in liberal enclaves, but the whole country.
The reason progressives don’t control the Texas legislature is that progressives in Texas are a tiny minority of voters. If you’re going to have a revolution then that revolution is going to have to include Texas, which means you’re going to have to make the citizens of Texas into progressives. How’s that working out for you? You think electing Trump is going to help with that?
Wishing for a progressive revolution is explicitly conceding that progressivism is a minority position. Which it is. You might wish it weren’t, but it is. Fact is, Hillary got more votes that Bernie. Are the rules stacked against Bernie? Sure, that’s what happens when you’re in the minority. So make yourselves into a majority and the fact that the rules are stacked against you won’t matter. And if you can’t muster up enough progressive energy to take over the Democratic Party, how the fuck are you going to take over the fucking country?
We do not live in revolutionary times. We don’t live in pre-revolutionary times. The people are not waiting for a spark to kick off a revolution. They want jobs and health care and decent housing and some respect. Maybe try offering that instead?
Compare eight years of Bush with the possibility of eight years of Al Gore. You don’t have to be a deep thinker to realize that America and the entire world would be a much better place now. The Nader candidacy in 2000 was an absolute tragedy, voter lunacy that led to a horrible outcome.
And now we have “progressives” threatening a repeat. They’re not even planning to vote for a 3rd-partier; they’ll vote Trump — out of spite I guess, since the ideals and temperament of Sanders and Trump are mostly opposites.
Balderdash!! — What have you been smoking? If GWB “destroyed the GOP” why does the GOP still control both Houses of Congress, most states, and threatens to install a President even worse than GWB?? (Yes, they were out of the White House for 8 years, but they wanted out — let a Democrat take the blame for the impending economic and foreign debacles so clearly visible in 2008.)
The Presidency of GWB was horrible for America and the world. A Trump Presidency is likely to be even worse.
The strategy of
Let’s cripple America so voters blame the incumbent Party
is NOT a good strategy. America gets crippled alright, but voters don’t learn. Interesting that **adaher **proposes such a strategy for “pragmatic liberals” — it’s been a main GOP strategy during Obama’s terms.
Now, now; give the man credit for being willing to host rallies in “high crime areas”… :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Right, because those are the only two votes she ever cast and the only positions that she has. I agree with you that Clinton has been a little too republican when it comes to military action, so I can’t fault the criticism. I can’t fault someone for saying “I’m voting for Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton, and I would prefer that she represent the democratic party.” But sorry, Clinton is not a republican just because she’s voted with republicans on some issues. If nothing else, the fact that she would be representing a more left-leaning party would force her more clearly to the left on some of these issues than she might have been inclined to be in the past.
People govern with coalitions not by choice but out of necessity. The parties are a big tent out of necessity, which leaves little room for ideological purity. The state of Oklahoma is now criminalizing abortion – hell, they’re not criminalizing abortion they’re criminalizing miscarriage – because nobody with more centrist and moderate values has the courage to stand up to these people. Extremists win with faction politics. Bernie Sanders will never achieve anything more than being a passionate faction of the vote. If he and his supporters decide that they want to break apart the current progressive political structure that is represented by the democratic party, or if they merely decide they want to make a point by hurting their chances of winning elections, then they’re just encouraging more of the same. As someone said up-thread, prepare for the consequences.
And what is Sanders running on? A holy testament?
Politicians lay out a platform of what they intend to do if elected. You look at the platform and decide if it’s what you want and you look at the candidate and decide how much of it they can deliver.
Hopefully, this temper tantrum is a conscious or unconscious bid to drag Hillary to the left and maybe get Bernie an influential position in the administration.
I can understand that strategy, I support it, and I get that it entails some credible foot-stamping theatrics. However, that strategy will no longer be viable when Hillary secures the nomination. That’s when we will see whether Bernie and his Heads seriously care about actual people and their struggles, or whether this whole thing is just another example of hashtag activism on steroids.
Your thesis demands a definition of “progressive” that is self-serving, it buggers the question. Hillary is not a “progressive”? So, she demands the immediate repeal of the ACA? Wants to reverse the equality gains for women and minorities? Actively seeks new ways to dismantle union power? Her policy positions are largely in line with those of Trump, Cruz, Kasich?
So, if the Berniebots and the Clintonistas hammer out a compromise coalition…they will be powerless before the awesome might of the Republican Party?
I was thinking about that comment earlier and wondered if anyone else had picked up on it. Bernie Sanders does seem to have an appeal with those who are subconsciously racist and misogynist. “Why don’t those people (we know who they’re referring to) get it? Don’t they understand that Bernie’s trying to fight mass incarceration?!”
If you ever make a political RPG and include such loots I will buy it.
Thank fuck somebody on this thread ‘get’s it’.
Exactly! When people were ‘uncomfortable’ because of all the social shifts in the 1960s, who did they turn to? Richard Nixon. Because he promised law and order and all that stuff. If your plan is to make the American people uncomfortable and scared, they are just as likely to go with the more authoritarian candidate because it’s going to make them feel safe.
Put Trump in, and people will see how bad things are and the Progressives will be all the more powerful the next election.
That’s the reason Reagan and Shrub were one term presidents, right? :rolleyes:
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Clinton is not a progressive. She’s a moderate establishmentarian. Saying she’s not a progressive is not to say she’s a conservative, or a radical, or a whatever the fuck Trump is.
Hillary is a person who is very comfortable with the status quo. Nothing wrong with that. Any progressive gains under her will be the result of incremental politics. Nothing wrong with that.
I’m not personally a fan of Hillary. If I could I’d vote for Obama’s third term. But that’s not going to happen. And so I’m faced with a choice between Hillary and Trump. But that’s not a choice, is it? Hillary for all her many, many faults is clearly superior by any metric you care to name. Any metric.
The notion that some here have made, that Trump would be better than Hillary because Trump would be worse for the country and therefore lead to a progressive revolution is clearly fucking insane. The country is like the Titanic, with the elite first class passengers up top, and the third class passengers packed below. How do the third class passengers benefit from an iceberg?
I find Sanders somewhat irritating, and the extreme among his followers are downright maddening. But I think what happens then is that it’s easy for me, being irritated, to then think “Wait, what they’re doing is so much worse than irritating. It’s destructive. So I’m not being mean when I want him to shut up and go away. And I’m not trying to silence anyone! I’m a liberal! Free speech! I just want him to go away for the sake of all that is good and right and just.”
Once I can feel that I’m not just personally irritated but am actually a defender of something spiffy like justice or progressivism I can then vent my spleen about Sanders while saying I’m not just being petty. I’m being all noble and shit. I’m thinking only of you, America!
Now, I think some of what’s going down, the Nevada stuff for example, is objectively just wrong, ugly, and dangerous. But I think some of the rhetoric starting a few months ago is less “This is actually a huge deal” and more “I’m fucking annoyed but will make a huge deal of this to feel like my annoyance is more fair.”