Hillary Vs. Lazio - who won the debate?

In My Humble Opinion
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and

There is a lot going on here.

A) Without a legislative record, or in your opinion, any record whatsoever, how do you reach the conclusion that she is a crazy raving statist?

Compare the following, from a previous post.

New York is an extremely liberal state. What exactly is the average New Yorker’s fear of government?

B) Do you really want to play the role of class warrior? Both Hillary and her class are a menace to liberty? So Lazio grew up and represents the ghetto? No…Long Island, a home of old money, elitism, and intolerance. Did F. Scott Fitzgerald write The Great Gatsby with no basis in fact? Certainly not.

So you really can’t have it both ways. Hate Hillary all you want, but don’t pretend you are on the side of the “average New Yorker” by voting for Lazio.

MR

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I must tell you that I get so steamed by the anti-up and -down state bigotries that exist in NYS. (I’m not suggesting anyone here is fanning the flames, btw, I just want to rant a little…)

You have no idea how proud I am that we’ve got Niagara Falls, and the Baseball HOF, the birthplace of women’s suffrage, and Adirondack State Park – just to name some tourism sites – here in NYS. (In fact, I thought Pataki chose poorly with his Statue of Liberty quarter design – it should have been Niagara Falls, IMO.) Yet all these marvelous places and things could be on the moon for all NYCers care! And, I suspect, upstaters feel the same about my hometown’s highlights.

I just don’t understand this. Both breeds, IMO, are smallminded, shortsighted obnoxious snobs.

Rant over. On to next topic…

Ed: The story of your Politics class reminded me about an experience related to my aforementioned documentary. The video is about the 1898 consolidation of Greater NYC – the event that created today’s five boroughs out of many, smaller, formerly independent, municipalities. When NYC celebrated it’s 100th anniversary in 1998, there was much speculation about the wisdom of the consolidation – especially by residents of the outer-boroughs; would they not be better off severed from snooty, limelight-stealing Manhattan?

Ken Jackson, Columbia U. professor and primo NYC historian, answered the question at a seminar I attended. Seccessionists don’t know what they’re talking about, he contended. He followed it up with a list of advantages the boroughs gain by being tied to Manhattan. The main point he made was that “those Manhattan skyscrapers keep the property taxes on, say, a Staten Island home, lower than they should be.” “Believe me,” he added, “the only ones who’d benefit from cutting the ties with Manhattan would be Manhattanites.” I suspect the same would be true if NYS chose to cut NYC free, namely that the city would thrive on its own, and the rest of the state would likely suffer.

I hope you (…and any other interested Dopers…) will attend the Albany history event. It’s open to everyone (for a small registration fee, of course). I think you and your fiance would enjoy it, and I’d certainly be delighted to meet you guys.

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[The average public school allocation for NYC per student per year is about $8000. Upstate and
Westchester students are allocated anywhere from $10000 to $15000 dollars per year because of the NYS education formula, which is
vastly disproportionate to the needs of students. ]

I went to a private school (12yrs ago) that made it a point not to accept any gov’t funding, the charge per student was $2000 + $500 for books/lab fees even w/ inflation it is no where near the $8000-$15000 you state. WTF to those teachers do with our money :mad:
Also shouldn’t it be cheaper per student where their are more of them and no bussing?

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SPOOFE Bo Diddly:

No, but I’ll count this as the first time…Thanks!

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You are not giving me enough information here.

[ul]
[li]Was your school affiliated with any religious organization?[/li][li]Where was your school located?[/li][li]Did it have substantial benefactors or foundations who subsidized operating expenses to keep tuition down?[/li][li]Were you a recipient of some sort of financial aid?[/li][/ul]

MR

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Unless the private school in question has a substantial endowment, I assume they balance the books by paying the teachers diddly.

Getting back to the main subject, the main thing I think the press left either of them off the hook about was Lazio’s line about ‘guilt by association’ after Clinton mentioned that he’d voted with Gingrich an awful lot.

I haven’t seen anyone remind us that guilt by association is when you know someone who was guilty of X, but didn’t participate in X. Lazio was a participant in those votes; Hillary Clinton wasn’t a participant in her husband’s tawdry affair, nor was she a witting participant in any coverup.

Well, I’ll be - a wife who’s prepared to give her husband the benefit of the doubt!

FWIW, while I have a fairly high opinion of Hillary Clinton, I wish she’d stayed out of New York. If she had, I think this would have been Nita Lowey’s race to lose. In 2002 and 2004, she could have run for Senate from Arkansas or Illinois, the states she’s genuinely connected to. I think the national party thought they needed a star to run against Guiliani; even before his marital problems came to light, I thought they were wrong.

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[Wiping tear away from eye after Stuyguy’s homage to our state…:)]

Seriously, I too am irritated at the bickering. One thing in particular that annoys me is the attitude of other state residents…

“Oh, you’re from New York? I have a friend in Manhattan. Oh, I’m sorry, you mean upstate. You mean Poughkeepsie?” :rolleyes:

FWIW, I consider the Adirondack region my ‘home’, and my job has me frequently taking a train into NYC. Two completely different worlds, and I try my best to identify with both, as they both are what I consider two of the most interesting places in the world.

My fiance’s rather conservative parents are scared to death of NYC (about 2.5 hours away), and have only been there twice (bus trips with the church). Yet they think nothing of traveling almost 5 hours to visit relatives in Rochester.

Likewise, I enjoy watching Law and Order and hearing Lenny’s snide comments about travelling upstate and visiting ‘Ma and Pa Kettle’. Or “I spent three weeks up there one weekend.” Heh.

I would have voted for something Adirondack related on the quarter (image of the high peaks or something) but I suppose anything other than the Statue of Liberty would have been counter-intuitive to the rest of the country, so I don’t really mind the choice.

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What Lazio missed was a golden opportunity to interrupt Tim Russert and ask him to retract the question, something along the lines of, “I think the American people is tired of hearing about this. Let’s talk about the issues.” Them I really would have been impressed.

I agree completely. I don’t like Hillary, but I respect her and think she will be a decent senator. However, I was raised in Westchester: I have to admit that I was infuriated when Nita Lowey stepped aside. Not as if she had a choice in the matter. I would have loved to have elected her. I only hope that Hillary’s entrance into the senate race hasn’t utterly ruined Lowey’s aspirations.

Regards,
MR

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How can Hilary act so innocent about the Lewinsky affair? Even back in Little Rock, she was known to hurl lamps and ashtrays at her husband, after leaning about his (numerous) infidelities.
Again, Lazio exposed her for the hypocrite she is. I only wish they had stayed more with the education topic - especially since Arkansas is at or near the bottom, in virtually every category of educational performance.
Hilary’s answers are not answers-they are meant to confuse, deflect, and (ultimately) wear down the questioner. That is why she never answers a direct question.
Read Joe Esterhasz’s recent book on Clinton for more details.