Hip-hop SUCKS

The BBQ Pit
21

[QUOTE=tdn]
I’ve given a semi-honest try to like hip hop, and I have to say that I did find maybe two songs I liked. This is in the past twenty+ years.
[/QUOTE]

Same here. I’ve been a voracious rock fan for several years. At some point I decided to give jazz a try even though it was pretty far outside my comfort zone. I did some research, put some effort into understanding the music on its own terms instead of what I expected, and gave it time to sink in. I found it the experience immensely rewarding and enriching. But for the life of me, I just can’t get into rap. The lyrics don’t speak to me, the chintzy productions bore me, and the artists don’t intrigue me. I know it’s cliche, but I can honestly say it all sounds the same to me, no matter how many different artists I sample. So, I’ve pretty much given up on trying to understand or enjoy rap.

In conclusion, GET OFF MY LAWN! :smiley:

(I do like Lauryn Hill’s debut album, but probably because it’s more soul than rap, and I do like DJ Shadow and the Beastie Boys, but probably because they’re so heavily indebted to psychedelic rock.)

22

[QUOTE=guppy]
Of course rock acts never use foul language or exploit women on stage.
[/QUOTE]
In the past two years or so I’ve seen in concert: Hoobastank, P.O.D, Taproot, Staind, U2, Avenged Sevenfold, Bare Naked Ladies, Coheed & Cambria, Dream Theater, Bad Religion, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam, Queens of the Stone Age, Switch Foot, Three Days Grace, Coldplay, Green Day, and quite a few others.

None of them had half-naked female dancers in postage stamp-sized hot-pants and halter tops.

23

This post goes off at a tangent, but it will get around to the point…

I remember that fairly recent Live 8 gig when it was said that the artist list should include those musicians from Africa, after all, it was largely Africa that the G8 summit was supposed to be about.

Eventually they did put on a great show that included many of those artists, folk such as Baaba Maal

Here it is,

Now when I saw this, and the artists, and their talent and musicianship, it just struck me how childish, immature our cult of youth worship actually is, some of those African musicians were >gasp< over 40 years old, but they have a vibrancy, a life and a relevance that the pathetic offerings of the so-called edgy rap artists never had. They also have a real story to tell, from true poverty, to war, to politics to unbridled joy, you just know these musicians have truly lived and have something to say.

I also include among that pap and trite rubbish, the vast majority of current rock music, definately all the boy/girl reality tv bands etc etc.(oh whoa my life is so hard as an American teen/gangbanger/shopping mall teenqueen)

I would suggest that you introduce yourself to this wonderful musical spread by starting off with the “Africa Calling” (live at Eden) CD and especially the DVD which gives you the live performances, and see real musicians holding an audience with all their skills.

Just make sure you get the Live at Eden and not the Live 8 DVD set.

Now compare that to the studio-only crap of so many hip hoppers, sorry but there is no comparison at all.

Then maybe move on and explore the music of these artists in more detail.

http://www.worldmusiccentral.org/article.php?story=20051120082131496&query=thomas%2Bmapfumo

Then tell me about how great hip-hop is as practiced in the Western World, because it is utterly rubbish.

24

[QUOTE=DragonAsh]
In the past two years or so I’ve seen in concert: Hoobastank, P.O.D, Taproot, Staind, U2, Avenged Sevenfold, Bare Naked Ladies, Coheed & Cambria, Dream Theater, Bad Religion, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam, Queens of the Stone Age, Switch Foot, Three Days Grace, Coldplay, Green Day, and quite a few others.

None of them had half-naked female dancers in postage stamp-sized hot-pants and halter tops.
[/QUOTE]

I’m sure that’s true; however, there are plenty of rock acts who have in the past (and I’m sure in the future) have done the very same things. There are also a host of hip-hop artists who would never do this. I could say I saw Mos Def, the Roots, DJ Shadow and a list of similar groups to counter your examples of rock shows you’ve seen. You may have a case in saying that hip-hop currently has more of this kind of exploitation; I don’t really know or care. I know I have been to a few rap shows and have yet to see these kinds of displays.

My point is that I would never question your opinion that rap/hip-hop sucks based on aesthetics. I do, however, question your opinion that rock stars are morality superior to rap stars. I don’t by it.

Not that the virtue of the artist will be my guide to what I listen to. If that were the case, I’d probably really like the Lawrence Welk Show or Perry Como (someone will probably come along and say they were evil, but I like the sound of it :stuck_out_tongue: ). YMMV.

25

While I agree a blanket statement that " ___________sucks" may not be the best way to start a thread around here, pit or otherwise, I don’t think it’s impossible for someone to have an honest dislike for a certain genre.
I know next to nothing about hip- hop, but I completely understood what the OP was talking about. Maybe he and I have only been exposed to the commercial, crappy stuff, but mustn’t the stuff he’s talking about share *some * characteristics with the good stuff that many people have cited in order for them to fall under the same category? Are the specific elements he pointed out not present in most hip -hop? I’m honestly asking. When I think of hip-hop I picture heavy bass with a certain cadence, words rhythmically spoken / shouted (as opposed to lyrics sung to a melody)and lots of "yo"s and "hey"s or whatever shouted out in the background. If these aren’t things usually found in most hip-hop music than can someone educate this unhipster what hip-hop is?And if these are common traits to most hip-hip, why can’t the OP’s dislike of the genre be legitimate based on what he’s heard?

26

[QUOTE=guppy]
I’m sure that’s true; however, there are plenty of rock acts who have in the past (and I’m sure in the future) have done the very same things. There are also a host of hip-hop artists who would never do this. I could say I saw Mos Def, the Roots, DJ Shadow and a list of similar groups to counter your examples of rock shows you’ve seen. You may have a case in saying that hip-hop currently has more of this kind of exploitation; I don’t really know or care. I know I have been to a few rap shows and have yet to see these kinds of displays.

My point is that I would never question your opinion that rap/hip-hop sucks based on aesthetics. I do, however, question your opinion that rock stars are morality superior to rap stars. I don’t by it.

Not that the virtue of the artist will be my guide to what I listen to. If that were the case, I’d probably really like the Lawrence Welk Show or Perry Como (someone will probably come along and say they were evil, but I like the sound of it :stuck_out_tongue: ). YMMV.
[/QUOTE]

heh, morality superior = morally superior :smack: and please ignore the extra have.

27

[QUOTE=Lissa]
Question: Is Hip-Hop and gangster rap the same thing? I thought gangster rap was the “bitches and ho’s” and killing people. I always thought Hip-hop was like Coolio and the stuff they play on the radio. Please cure my ignorance.
[/QUOTE]

Seeing as how Coolio’s biggest radio hit was “Gangster’s Paradise,” I think it’s safe to say that gangster rap is a large portion of hip-hop.

PS

I can’t agree with you here. Frankly, I think you’re confusing your dislike of the form with your dislike of the content. Gangster rap is the latest permutation in a long tradition of murder-ballads and crime-rock. If you have the same aversion to Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds, or think that Johnny Cash sucks because sang that he shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, then even though I think that you should be able to enjoy music more as a story-telling medium (you should), I also applaud your moral evenhandedness. Likewise, it would be good for you (and bad for you) if you claimed to think that rock music sucks because of the misogyny inherent in the “representatives” of the genre (any Zeppelin fans?).

The point I’m trying to make is that there most certainly are talented geniuses in the “thuggin’ and ho’s” segment of hip-hop. Why wouldn’t there be? Why should crime, murder, lust, and sex be off-limits for rappers the way no one would ever suggest they should be for rockers?

28

What you have to realize about “blingin’ thuggin’ and hoes” hip-hop is that it reflects an entirely different upbringing than most music. If you forgive the assumption, I would guess that you did not grow up in a poor black neighborhood. It’s an entirely different culture, and the music reflects the childhood dreams of people who never had anything. While you have every right to not like it, I would like to think that you can understand where it’s coming from and not dismiss it offhand.

29

[QUOTE=WOOKINPANUB]
While I agree a blanket statement that " ___________sucks" may not be the best way to start a thread around here, pit or otherwise, I don’t think it’s impossible for someone to have an honest dislike for a certain genre.
I know next to nothing about hip- hop, but I completely understood what the OP was talking about. Maybe he and I have only been exposed to the commercial, crappy stuff, but mustn’t the stuff he’s talking about share *some * characteristics with the good stuff that many people have cited in order for them to fall under the same category? Are the specific elements he pointed out not present in most hip -hop? I’m honestly asking. When I think of hip-hop I picture heavy bass with a certain cadence, words rhythmically spoken / shouted (as opposed to lyrics sung to a melody)and lots of "yo"s and "hey"s or whatever shouted out in the background. If these aren’t things usually found in most hip-hop music than can someone educate this unhipster what hip-hop is?And if these are common traits to most hip-hip, why can’t the OP’s dislike of the genre be legitimate based on what he’s heard?
[/QUOTE]

But the blanket statement he made was not that he doesn’t particularly like any kind of hip-hop; he attempted to argue that it was actually inferior to other forms of music. You can dislike whatever genres of music you want, but it’s silly to try to pretend that you can meaningfully declare an entire genre of music to be bad.

It’s hard for me to imagine anything worse than Hoobastank or Staind, incidentally . . .

30

I’m with Excalibre (and Iron Man!). If the OP had been “I don’t like the way hip-hop puts the focus on rhythm over melody” then it would have been tame and inarguable – the OP was instead “hip-hop objectifies women and they’re rapping about gasp murder and drugs,” a statement that I think can’t be justified. It’s perfectly fine to dislike hip-hop for its musical qualities, but it makes no sense to condemn an entire genre for its lyrical content, especially when that lyrical content is pretty unobjectionable in the context of making art. The OP did the latter, not the former.

31

[QUOTE=Excalibre]
But the blanket statement he made was not that he doesn’t particularly like any kind of hip-hop; he attempted to argue that it was actually inferior to other forms of music. You can dislike whatever genres of music you want, but it’s silly to try to pretend that you can meaningfully declare an entire genre of music to be bad.

It’s hard for me to imagine anything worse than Hoobastank or Staind, incidentally . . .
[/QUOTE]

True, but…how do I say this. . . if the thing he hates about whatever sample of hip-hop he’s heard is a constant in most forms of hip-hip, i.e. quickly spoken lyrics or pounding bass (sorry, like I said, I don’t know enough about hip-hop), doesn’t that pretty much ensure that he doesn’t or wouldn’t like the whole genre?

32

I guess I get defensive when people dismiss an entire genre of music not only because they don’t like it (this is fine with me), but try to say X form of music has no value or it is not music. He doesn’t value it, but there are plenty of people who do. I didn’t argue with his ascertion that those elements (crotch grabbing, ho saying etc…) excist in hip-hop; but they are not the rule. Just like having bikini clad pole dancers ala Warrent does not represent all of rock and roll.

“Early one mornin’ while makin’ the rounds
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down
I went right home and I went to bed I stuck that lovin’ 44 beneath my head” - Cocaine Blues (done by Johnny Cash, Woody Guthrie and many more)

33

I’ve seen probably a couple of hundred rock concerts over the years. I’m trying to think of any of them that had half-naked girls on stage as a primary (or even secondary) component of their act - and I’ll be damned if I can think of any.

Anyone?

Fred D, I don’t like hip hop in general. Primarily because I don’t like the lack of melody, the lack of proper vocals, poor lyrical content, and incoherent shouting to a heavy bass and drum backing track. I think it is indeed inferior as a genre because at least for the hip hop that I’ve seen, the music can’t stand on its own - it needs the thuggin’ and bling and hos. This point was really driven home after seeing a hip hop act and rock band back to back.

Doesn’t mean there can’t or aren’t talented, intellectual rap/hip hop artists. But as long as bling and hos are the core elements of hip hop - it sucks :wink:

Incidentally, Hoobastank was surprising good in concert. I was quite disappointed with Staind. RHCP were friggen’ awesome. Pearl Jam sucked. Green Day was great. U2 of course ruled. Coheed & Cambria sounded like Phishy Tool. The Avenged Sevenfold vocalist obviously is an Axle Rose wannabe. Bare Naked Ladies were sickly talented (they took turns playing all the instruments).

34

I can understand what DragonAsh is saying. He paid good money to see a karaoke show. He didn’t even get a turn with the mike.

35

Most of the good stuff’s been said already, but to recap:

[ul]
[li]Anytime you label any genre of music to have “no redeeming social value” you are bound to end up sounding foolish. You can condemn aspects of a genre, certainly artists, but how can you expect to be taken seriously by condemning all of the music? Have you listened to a representative sampling of all kinds of hip-hop?[/li][li]Public Enemy’s “By The Time I Get To Arizona” was instrumental in drawing attention to Arizona’s resistance to the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday.[/li][li]The critiques you make at this particular segment of hip-hop has been made many times over by other hip-hop artists - see Queen Latifah, MC Lyte, and others.[/li][li]The popular edge of any genre often involves a lot of hacky, one-dimensional crap. Once suits figure out money can be made, every half-talent that’s malleable is out parodying the art form. Remember hair metal in the late 80s/early 90s?[/li][li]Even your critique of LL Cool J is misguided. He’s one of hip-hop’s most enduring artists. Yes, his music is aimed at the mainstream, happy-go-lucky consumer. So what? Little Richard, Chuck Berry, and Jerry Lee Lewis weren’t exactly pushing the envelope regarding the themes in their music.[/li][li]You name-checked Hoobastank and Staind. I’m supposed to take your perspectives on music seriously?[/li][/ul]
That last one’s a little low, but it is the Pit.

“Hip-hop sucks!” or “I call it Crap music” are two of the most tiresome memes on the SDMB. Do you want to sound like those jackasses on film from the 1950s decrying Elvis Presley as playing devil music? As many posters have noted, there’s really no new topics to be covered in music, and hip-hop artists are mining the same topics that blues, r&b, rock, and country musicians have mined for decades.

36

[QUOTE=DragonAsh]
Fred D, I don’t like hip hop in general. Primarily because I don’t like the lack of melody, the lack of proper vocals, poor lyrical content, and incoherent shouting to a heavy bass and drum backing track. I think it is indeed inferior as a genre because at least for the hip hop that I’ve seen, the music can’t stand on its own - it needs the thuggin’ and bling and hos. This point was really driven home after seeing a hip hop act and rock band back to back.
[/quote]

And it’s already been established that a lot of hip-hop doesn’t involve thugs, bling, or hos. Thus, you were clearly issuing your condemnation on the basis of inadequate information.

Your apparently very low standards when it comes to rock music don’t lend your point any additional credence, either.

37

[QUOTE=Fred D]
Seeing as how Coolio’s biggest radio hit was “Gangster’s Paradise,” I think it’s safe to say that gangster rap is a large portion of hip-hop.

PS

[/QUOTE]

Just because it says gangster, does not make it gangster Rap. There isa big difference, IMHO, between a song that talks about a criminal lifestyle and “Yo, my biitches and hos, i fuck them all day. I shoot people, I love rob.” etc…

For example, is not Will Smith considered Hip-hop? Is that, in anyway, similar to 50 cent?

38

I didn’t say I liked Hoobastank and Staind or any other artists I mentioned - those are just the acts I’ve seen in concert. Just focusing on the groups I mentioned, I’m a fan of U2, Green Day, RHCP, Bare Naked Ladies, and yes, Foo Fighters.

Since you’re obviously setting the benchmark for rock music taste, what acts should I be listening to?

39

[QUOTE=WOOKINPANUB]
True, but…how do I say this. . . if the thing he hates about whatever sample of hip-hop he’s heard is a constant in most forms of hip-hip, i.e. quickly spoken lyrics or pounding bass (sorry, like I said, I don’t know enough about hip-hop), doesn’t that pretty much ensure that he doesn’t or wouldn’t like the whole genre?
[/QUOTE]

Sure. Someone can easily decide that some genre of music is not to their liking based upon its musical qualities. On the other hand, trying to argue that hip-hop is actually inferior to some other variety of music on the basis of those qualities is simply irrational. It makes as much sense to claim that hip-hop is somehow inferior to other forms of music on the basis of the fact that the vocalists are singing as to say that jazz sucks compared to rock because there’s hardly any singing, and when people do sing, it often involves rapid strings of nonsense syllables. You can certainly find the conventions of a genre not to your taste, but how can you try to argue that, just because you don’t like those conventions, that genre is somehow inferior to others?

Of course, even that poor argument is giving DragonAsh too much credit, since his complaints revolved around stage antics limited to a very small selection of hip-hop artists. Since the things he condemned hip-hop for aren’t even representative of the genre, his argument is particularly weak.

40

[QUOTE=DragonAsh]
Since you’re obviously setting the benchmark for rock music taste, what acts should I be listening to?
[/QUOTE]

You shouldn’t be listening to rock anymore. Rock is dead. If there’s anything played out, it’s some dude with a guitar plunking out the same four chords over and over in front of some dude with a drumset. Modern rock has become such a bland, conventionalized style of music that nothing worthwhile has been done in twenty years. :stuck_out_tongue:

You have to admit there’s a little bit of irony in someone who apparently listens to nothing but extremely popular rock bands criticizing others for listening to extremely popular rap artists.