Hip-hop SUCKS

The rhythmical phrasing of the spoken beats. The wordplay. If you ever want to convince yourself of the rhythmical complexity of hip-hop, sit down and transcribe some rhythms for yourself. I’m not talking about the back-beat, I’m talking about what goes on in front of it. It certainly takes skill and talent to convincingly rap. I sure as hell can’t do it. Can you? You may think so, but I’m sure a hip-hop listening audience will easily pick you out as the tyro.

As for DJs and talents–there’s a lot of ham-fisted mediocre DJs out there, but go see a guy like, say, Kid Koala and then tell me there’s no talent involved in doing what he does. There’s plenty of stuff on YouTube if you want to check him out.

So a few are good at rhythmical phrasing - you telling me most are? Not the ones I’ve been listening to.

Also, I think I might be able to pick up DJing skills (if I had the time and inclination) in a lot shorter time than learning to play a musical instrument or developing a singing voice to a high standard.

I didn’t say the DJs don’t have talent. They do, like carpenters and sound engineers do.

That is the problem with these discussions. You can say rock, or jazz or classical music suck all you like, but say hiphop sucks and you’re a racist.

I don’t think he’s saying you’re a racist if you say you hate hip hop - I think he’s saying that people don’t want to say they simply don’t like hip hop because they’re afraid of the PC police.

Stand up and be counted if you hate hip hop but are scared to say so because you fear being labled racist! I doubt there are many if any - noone appears to be afraid to say they hate jazz or blues or soul etc, aren’t these are rooted in black music?

Give me a plausible alternative story. No, they are not named after Eddie Vedder’s “Grandma Pearl’s” jam preserves.

This was way back on page 1, but it needs to be commented on.

  1. Coolio? Fucking Coolio? Who gave Ted Stevens the tube address for the SDMB?

  2. No, really–Coolio? I don’t think I’d heard anyone mention Coolio since middle school. Did you just come from a roller rink or something? Are you going to hit us with some Soul 4 Real next?

  3. Since its’ apparently throwback day: Hi Opal!

  4. You think Gangster’s Paradise fits in the typical guns and 'hos pattern? Have you ever listened to the song? First lyrics:

As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I take a look at my life and realize there’s nothing left,
‘cause I’ve been laughin’ and blastin’ so long
even my momma thinks that my mind is gone.

Its’ not a happy song. The narrator is trying to turn people from the “gangsta” path.

As was mentioned earlier 90% of everything is crap. People have thrown out artists that are good, but you choose to wallow in crap. Your loss.

I admire anyone who can put together lyrics that scan well and rhyme, even if I don’t always enjoy the content.

Yeah, good luck with that. And I’ll be replacing James Morris is the Wotan for the modern age.

Is collage art? I say it is, if it’s done beautifully and well. A new piece of art is created. You don’t have to agree, but that doesn’t make me wrong.

What about the rapper? Any regard for the lyrics and delivery? Frank Sinatra didn’t write his own lyrics or play any instruments, but no one is saying he’s not a musician, are they?

Seriously, folks. Give it a rest.

Many, if not all of you, will find this post to be elitist. And if you consider opposition to lowest common denominator culture – the “mass man” that Ortega y Gasset warned us about decades ago and Nietzsche warned us about even earlier – to be elitist, then this post most definitely is elitist and I’m not in the least ashamed of this.

You see, you have to judge rap/hip-hop not against the low standards of most post-millennial rock (as some have done here), but instead all Western music has to be compared against the highest standard Western culture has ever produced: what we call Classical Music. The standard set by Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart centuries ago. And against that standard, rap/hip-hop does indeed suck, and suck hard (to employ the vernacular).

By that I mean that, though it has some musical value, it has an abysmally low level of it. Lower than anything else out there of which I’m aware. There is no real musical or compositional effort put into it; it has no grounding theory; no valuable set of aesthetics; it places almost no value in melody or harmony; it has almost zero respect for its audience, etc., etc.

Note that this is most emphatically NOT a question of taste or of liking or not liking rap/hip-hop. For example, I don’t like traditional, free-form jazz, but there’s no denying that it has enormous musical value and represents a huge musical gift from our African-American heritage. I’m saying nothing new when I point out that African-Americans are far and away the greatest contributors to our musical heritage, from gospel to soul to blues to jazz to r&b to rock, no one has exceeded African-Americans in their enormous contributions to great, awe-inspiring American music.

That is, until African-Americans started producing rap/hip-hop with Caucasians following. Then the hideously ugly mass-man reared its repugnant head and started spewing stagnant, hate-fueled vomit at us. (Well, maybe that’s a little strong… :wink: ) Seriously, though, only the truly desperate and those unaware of musical history and musical aesthetics can force their mouths or typing fingers to claim that rap/hip-hop has more than extremely low musical value. It appeals to the mass-man, yes, but so do penis and fart jokes. In my experience, usually the more popular something is the less merit and value it has. The mass-man, as we were warned would happen, has trumped value and aesthetics and most things good and noble about humanity. What better proof than that rap/hip-hop is so popular, even far outside the African-American community? These listeners don’t want music, they want mindless noise with a beat. Music is far too complex and sophisticated for them and they don’t want any part of it.

Now this has nothing to do with “cultural relativism”. The racist claim that rap/hip-hop has high musical value to African-American culture can only mean that African-American culture is largely incapable of making aesthetic judgements, and I refuse to believe that. Musical value judgements are inter-subjective; they don’t change from culture to culture. For example, the native African music mentioned above is truly great music regardless of one’s culture of origin. Like jazz and other African-American inspired music other than rap/hip-hop, it compares quite well with the Western gold standard of Western classical music and also with Eastern musical gold standards.

While rap/hip-hop is essentially irredeemable shit on a plate when evaluated with musical theory and musical aesthetics in mind.

Let me summarize the preceding post: I don’t like hip-hop, and I’m going to use lots of big words and pseudointellectual bullshit to say so! If you disagree with me, you’re just part of the lowest common denominator. Hee hee, I’m an elitist. That’s my way of padding out my opinions by painting myself as an oppressed rebel!

That has got to be one of the least credible and/or valuable assertions I’ve encountered in this thread. People go to see what is popular, by definition. But as I remarked above, what is popular is usually shit because the dull-witted, unenlightened majority has terrible taste and tends to not even want music in the first place since it challenges them too much.

I see you have nothing of any worth or merit to say, and even then you said it poorly. But you said it! Aren’t you proud of yourself?

Well, a lot of it sounds like a rather pissed-off drunk rolling down a rocky hill trapped in a steel garbage can and cussing every time it hits a bump. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s worse than disco or even the rest ofr contemporary top 40 or anything.

There is music such that the lack of musical pitch in rap constitutes a marked improvement…

You see folks, anyone with a tongue and a working Broca’s area can jumble words together as ambushed demonstrated, but it takes an artist to make them into poetry.

Not a fan of drum solos I take it.

Someone wiser and more versed in music theory than I will be along to straighten you out, unless they are weary of this argument or didn’t feel like trudging though your post (it was painful), but let me just say, yes, your post came across “elitist.” It also came across “long-winded” and “poorly-informed.” On preview, thanks excalibre.
BTW, only Mozart was a “Classical” composer. Bach was Baroque and Beethoven was Romantic. Pet peev of mine.

Aww, did I hurt your feelings?

You need to check out the movie 8 Mile.

It probably took the dude from Bread like 4 months to come up with “baby I’m a want you/baby I’m a need you” while the most talented rappers can spit an incredible, rhyme out right on the spot, about anything.

I used to be a “rock snob” and am a really huge Pearl Jam fan - was into the whole “alternative” thing. Then “alternative” turned into Creed and I gave up on rock and switched over to hear what was going on elsewhere in popular music. I still love and admire and swear by Pearl Jam, and The Beatles and all sorts of “important” rock but I am constantly amazed by what I hear in hip-hop, and I even listen to top-40 stuff.

You can’t listen to something like Hello Nasty and not say that the producers, scratchers and rappers aren’t amazingly talented. Or any of Missy Elliot’s stuff, or Q Tip, or Busta Rhymes, or Eminem…and most folks would call them pop hip hop. I haven’t even scratched the surface of what hardcore fans would call “good” hip hop.

And by the way, DragonAsh…311? RATM? RHCP? All influenced by hip hop, dontchaknow.

Beethoven was Classical.

Poverty and life in the ghetto is in no way the dominant theme of hip-hop music, and especially not the glorification thereof. Most of what is widely considered “gangster rap” is an exaggerated view of the lives of people who have risen out of the ghetto. You think there is blingin’ and hoes in the ghetto? Sure, there’s a good amount of hip-hop that glorifies ghetto life, but it’s far from the dominant theme, and that’s still not a reason to brand it unworthy. Sometimes music doesn’t have to be taken so seriously.

Oh, great. Nietzche. Always a sure sign of a mature intellect. I’ll bet you’re an Ayn Rand fan, too, aren’t you?

Sure, that’s a fair standard. Let’s take all of contemporary music, top to bottom, from a span of no more than twenty years, and compare then to a double handful of the very best and most talented over a course of centuries. You want to stack the deck any higher there, chief?

Which specific rap/hip hop groups have you listened to, in order to make this determination?

Bullshit.

Cite?

Utterly arbitrary. It has a definite set of aesthetics that is valued by those who are partial to the genre.

And?

How do you mean, “respect?”

More bullshit.

Yeah, yeah, you love black people. Whatever.

“Everyone who disagrees with me is stoopid.” The Nietzche reference was a give-away. How old are you for real? Fifteen?

Oh, come off it. Penis and fart jokes appeal to everyone.

Maybe it’s just me, but when I read this post, I kept hearing Lenny Bruce say, “Thank you mass-man!”

“The more people disagree with me, the more right I am!” Quick! Everyone agree with ambushed! His argument will fall to pieces!

I’d like a cite for that, too.

Very nice. That didn’t come across as the least bit patronizing.

Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man!