Your source has several innaccuracies, and it fails entirely to mention the following pertinent section.
In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus tells of the rich man and the poor man. The rich man is in Hades:
Luke 16:24
So he (the rich man) called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."
Luke 16:27-28
…"Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."
Revelation 20:13-15
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Romans 10:9-10,
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Hades is agony and torment. God will consign those whose names are not written in the book of life to the lake of fire. If you believe in your heart, you will be saved.
I don’t know, but I that’s a different thing from declaring what is unjust.
Anybody with a decent grasp of both ethics and mathematics should be able to figure out that an infinite duration of pain and suffering cannot be justified by any finite act of evil.
Perhaps Matthew 22:29-30:
Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”
Please enlighten me: how does mathematics play a part in God’s plans?
As to your contention that eternal punishment is somehow unjust, I have to disagree with you.
Sin is not breaking a minor rule here and there. It is rejection of God. It is intentional disregard for God’s holiness, His commandments. This is no small matter. You have got to take this seriously, if you’re going to argue the point knowledgably. We’re talking about the intentional disobedience of the creation to the Creator’s rules. If God were to punish such disobedience any less, where would be the justice in that? God did not give man the option to sin, accept some later punishment (all the while retaining his original nature) and *still make it into heaven.
This would not be heaven. This would be the penal system from Earth for eternity. No, thank you.
Hades was the Greek underworld (called “Sheol” in Hebrew) where everybody went to await the final judgement. It was often also just a metaphor for death, Some people may have been punished in Sheol or Hades, but in Jewish belief the stay in in the underworld was not eternal. Everybody was going to get resurrected and judged. The good people got eternal life, the bad people (and death, itself) were annihilated in fire (the second death). It wasn’t eternal punishment in fire, it was utter destruction.
“Mathematics” as in fairness and justice. “Measure for measure” and all that. Not infinite punishment for a finite crime.
Do you accept every single God you’ve ever heard of? If not, then you’re rejecting at least some gods. How do you know which gods are safe to reject and which ones must be accepted?
What exactly does “holiness” mean in this sentence, and how do you know which divine “commandments” are ok to disregard and which ones must be followed? How do you know the Koran is not the correct book of laws?
How do you know what those rules are? How do you know which “creator?” Aren’t you intentionally disobeying the “rules” of lots and lots of other “creators” every day?
Where is the justice in infinite torture?
How do you know?
Why not? Why is Heaven any less fun if everybody gets in. Why is it so important to you to burn people in fire? What kind of sicko God would want to do that forever? How does it help God. What purpose does it serve? Frankly, if that’s what God does, then God can kiss my ass. If that’s what God does, then I am a way better person than he is , and I refuse to give such a morally inferior god any affection or fealty whatsoever.
Mathematics: Enough to understand that an infinite magnitude can never be balanced by a finite quantity. In fact, however large teh finite quantity it is reduced to nothnigness in relation to the infinite.
Ethics: Enough to know that punishment without chance for redemption is torture not teaching.
Say that you are correct in your concept of God. Say that I am in direct defiance of His will in my rejection of His laws. Say that His response to my act of finite understanding and finite rebellion is to torture me for eternity.
If all of the above were true, then He would be an evil and unjust God, fit for worship only by the selfish and cowardly.
Keeping in mind the other areas in scripture that Jesus had to correct for the Jews of His day, it doesn’t surprise me much that this item also was poorly and inadequately understood. And, also in keeping with the framework of the entire Bible, that of unfolding revelation, I would argue the final word is the most precise.
This eternal fire is spoken of more than a dozen times by Jesus, and always with the most solemn warning.
Mark 9:43
…to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Mark 9:48
…where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
None of these verses seem to indicate anything less than eternal fire and torment.
Thanks, I needed that. :smack: Sorry, I guess even with preview I didn’t quite make myself clear. Re-reading my own sentence threw me for a loop, too. What I meant to convey was this: any person rejecting God’s laws, hoping for punishment followed by entrance into heaven, without repentance, would be wrong.
What areas of scripture did Jesus have to “correct” in his day? Jesus was a practicing Jew. He believed in the Hebrew scriptures.
Everything he taught was from a Jewish perspective. He wasn’t trying to start a new religion or supercede Judaism. He would have been appalled at the thought. He was just trying to be a good rabbi.
The references in Mark are to Gehenna, not Hell. Gehenna was a real Valley southwest of Jerusalem which was used as a dump for animal carcasses and garbage. Fires burned there constantly and “undying” worms infested the carcasses. The bodies of criminals were also cast into Gehenna. Gehenna was said to have been an ancient site of human sacrifice as well. The Valley of Gehenna was literally a God-forsaken, fiery pit. Jesus was using the Valley as a metaphor for death, not eternal punishment. The Jews of that time had no concept of Hell as a place of eternal punishment. That’s basically a medievel Christian idea. it’s not Biblical.
The reference to the “lake of burning sulfer” from Revelation (a highly allegorical book) refers only to Satan and his demons, not to human beings. It has no connection to Jesus’ admonitions about Gehenna. You’re conflating two unrelated metaphors.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Justice would demand our all going to Hell. Grace is what gives us eternity with God.
DtC, we’ve gone over this before. It becomes something analagous to a run-on sentence once I start. I will try to answer your questions quickly; I hope this suffices.
I have arrived at a conclusion based on a series of steps which convince me that there is one and only one God. So, I’m going to skip the lengthy script such an explanation would demand and go from there.
First, let’s agree to the standard definition of God: omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, the one and only Creator of the heavens and the earth. Second, let’s agree that this God would choose to communicate with His creation.
From this point, we can begin making some judgments about this God and how to determine which pronouncements are His true word.
What nature does such evidence of communication take? Direct communication? Writings? Are there records? Reliable witnesses? Outside sources? Prophetic events?
At that point, it’s research and investigation. Check for bias in supplementary writings, look for consistency, look for pattern, look for a coherent voice. Look for a reason to believe.
Holiness is sacredness, consecration. Psalms 77:13 Your ways, O God, are holy, Psalms 99:9 for the LORD our God is holy, 2 Corinthians 7:1 …let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
Commandments are given in time and place and for specific people. This is another item that could go on for longer than I think we have. If you want to narrow things down, fine.
The Koran and the Bible cannot both be true, in my opinion.
For rules and creator, see above.
You mean, like the Babylonian gods? The Egyptian gods? The Roman and Greek gods? Are you serious?
The justice is that we are all condemned to death due to sin. Not original sin, our own. That God has provided a route out is due to His grace, not our desserts.
You’re asking two questions here, and I’m not sure the second should be answered, taking up space in this thread. The first question is, how do I know, WRT Hitler, as the OP stated, whether he will go to Hell or not. Fine, I can answer based on my understanding of the scripture, which is all anyone here can do. The second question, the one I can’t answer in a few words, is how do I know what I know, i.e., the basis for my knowledge. See above for just a quick explanation.
This is the heart of your questioning, I think. Please, whatever you do, do not misconstrue my comments on this subject to ever indicate that my desire is for people to burn in hell. I don’t know that I can convey to you the depth of feeling I have on this subject. Would that it were not true. If Hades were oblivion, then perhaps many would unthinkingly choose such. (How many times on this board have I read such comments: “hell won’t be so bad, my friends will be there”, or “oblivion will be fine, I don’t want to go to heaven anyway”)I cannot read all scripture on this subject and come to that conclusion. It seems to me to be a horrid false hope to tell people that they don’t have to worry about this life, because oblivion awaits, or everyone goes to heaven, or you rot in a hole in the ground. I cannot defend what I do not believe, which would lead others to a choice lasting eternity. I think about the worst scum of the earth: Hitler, serial murderers, child murderers. I think about 10,000 years in Hell, suffering even a mild form of discomfort. At the end of that 10,000 years, how much time would still lie ahead for them? It’s still eternity. No end. Ever. Ever.
I can understand your anger. You’re looking at it from your personal point of view, not God’s. Sin is unacceptable to him, it is less than perfection, less than “good”. Sin can be covered, by the payment for that sin Jesus made, but it must be accompanied by a sincere heart and repentance, meaning to turn back to God. If you think about it this way, God would be those things you called him if He left us without a way out. He gave us the way out. We have to decide if we want to take it. Are the choices you make in your life every day so vastly important that following God’s laws would be intolerable?
He didn’t correct scripture, He corrected the Jewish leaders of the day for their misinterpretations and legalistic interpretations of scripture. True, He wasn’t trying to supercede Judaism. He was fulfilling God’s promises to His people. That He was rejected paved the way for Gentiles to receive the blessings and sacrifice He offered.
You haven’t addressed the story of the rich man and the poor man in Luke. (I could have sworn I posted this already, but on preview I can’t find it. Hmm.)
Luke 16:24
So he called to him, Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
Luke 16:28
Let him warn them(his five brothers), so that they will not also come to this place of torment.
[QUOTE]
Jesus was using the Valley as a metaphor for death, not eternal punishment. The Jews of that time had no concept of Hell as a place of eternal punishment.
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The Jews were God’s specifically chosen people, through whom His word was given. Unbelief was not the problem.
It certainly is Biblical. The Bible contains revelations from God, increasing and adapting to the relationship with man. God had made no specific provision for Gentiles prior to Jesus. The Jews were not evangelical in nature. Without Jesus, there would still be no redemption of sin for Gentiles. That’s why you have to look at the entire Bible in depth.
So, when Mark references fire it means fire, but when John references fire, it means something else? Based on what? And does Rev. 20:10 not mention that the devil, beast and false prophet will be tormented there forever? AND it says that those not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.
NaSultainne,
Your quotation from Romans says that the “wages of sin is death,” not eternal punishment, death, annihilation, oblivion.
Can’t you see how utterly depraved and unjust this would be, even for Hitler? And what about people whose only “sin” is not accepting Jesus as their saviour? Do they really deserve the same punishment as Hitler? Why isn’t being a good person good enough? If God is all powerful, then he can accept anyone he wants into Heaven. What does he need a “saviour” for?
And even if we had a deity who insisted on judging people and torturing them based on their beliefs about the supernatural rather than their value as human beings, then why wouldn’t he make it clear which religion was correct? Why just set up the right way as one out of thousands with absolutely no proof for any? How could any God then truly expect everyone to make the right decison regardless of cultural or historical contexts. This is like placing a barrel of marbles before each soul and commanding them to pick the “right” one or burn in Hell. It’s irrational, it’s unjust and it’s unGodly.
1.) God created sin
2.) It’s God’s fault if we’re not perfect.
3.) How does nailing some guy to a tree pay for my sins?
4.) How about if I just skip the “turning back to God” part and just live with repentance and a sincere heart? Is that good enough? If not, why not?
Since I don’t accept the premise that I need to be saved from anything, then I don’t accept the premise that i need a way out.
I have no idea what “God’s laws” are or even if God exists at all, so I don’t concern myself with trying to make an arbitrary decison about which laws to follow. I’ll just be as good a person as I can, and if that’s not good enough for God then I’d rather hang out with satan. In fact a god that gets off on eternal torture is Satan.
There are indications in the Apocrypha/Deutero-Canonical and the Pseudipigraphical books that the concept of an Eternal Punishing Hell did exist among Jews of Jesus’ time. However, so did the concepts of a time of punishment followed by annihilation AND a time of punishment completed when the soul is reconciled to God.
Oddly enough, and I can no longer find the site, the Talmud actually has a passage indicating that as the Messiah sits with
God in Heaven teaching the prophets & saints & angels, those in Gehenna will hear him, repent & be restored into Paradise.
Now- if Hiter would indeed have entrusted himself to Christ in his last moments, then yes he would be saved- BUT I don’t think that means he gets off easy… I hope that all human souls are finally reconciled to God; I believe that all must come to God thru trust in Jesus (in this life or an afterlife)- in the Spiritual realm as we unite with Christ, we will share in His awareness, which includes the Hellish torment He suffered at Gologtha- being fully exposed & undone & remade in the Fire of God’s Love & Justice. Salvation in Christ is that trust & love for God makes sure we are not stuck in that state but come through it as a redeemed immortal child of God. Hitler coming to God thru Jesus would not be spared the Hell he deserved but will go thru it with Jesus- finding that his victims have made the same journey & hopefully overcome.
RE the eternal fire/punishment Scriptures- the Greek work “eternal” is “aionion”, which actually means “aion-enduring”- indicating perhaps a long intense period of time but not necessarily eternity.