HIV Test bogus, says PCR inventor

Well you continue to harp on your point that anal sex is riskier when all you have are guesses and ill-informed opinions. Since you’re the one making the claim, you need to provide the proof, no? All it does is make you sound like you’re saying “GAYS = ANAL SEX = AIDS,” and that’s a simple and dangerous platitude to espouse.

I didn’t say it was, but because I have such close ties to the medical community, I take offense at your implication that all medical professionals are only concerned about money. You’re starting to sound like these “AIDS deniers,” and trust me, that doesn’t help how others perceive you around here.

Esprix

I had a hypothesis…I used REASONING to support what I said…a quick survey of almost ANY of the cites for ANYTHING in this thread shows providing an outside cite means virtually nothing to the opposing side in this thread since it seems some have their viewpoint and can always find SOME way of discrediting the cite for practically any reason

So I tried a different way of supporting my hypothesis just using reason to support what I was saying

I said what I thought could be true…I offered a way to make the numbers(of who got infected and why) add up and covered all of YOUR reasons why if what you claim was true the numbers still would not add up

While what I said(anal sex is riskier than vaginal sex) COULD be wrong…NOTHING you have offered as an explanation for the numbers explains the problem

As for this

I NEVER not one time said ALL medical professionals are ONLY concerned about money…I gave my reason for having my doubts and not once did you address THAT…you just became “offended” I would impugn the medical profession when I had VERY good reasons for people(not just me) to have those very same doubts

And trying to lump me in with the AIDS deniers seems to ME like an effort to discredit me because you are unable to explain my point therefore you’re taking the easy way out by just making my whole point of view not worthy of debating

I do NOT have some hidden agenda and if you came up with a VALID reason to make what I said wrong I would accept it and consider it closed…so far you have NOT

In fact you seem to have given that up and are now trying to paint me as a gay hating person who wants to blame the AIDS problem on gays and the misconduct of ENTIRE medical profession

Is this even a debate anymore?

As I said before, if you’re the one making the hypothesis, you need to prove it. When I have time, however, I’ll see if I can help you find some relevant cites about the inherent risks of various kinds of sexual intercourse in relation to HIV/AIDS exposure.

I still don’t understand why you’re harping on the whole “anal sex is riskier than vaginal sex” other than you can’t seem to find evidence to support the statement. Such harping only makes you look like a bit of a homophobe, IMHO. But if it’s education you want, I (and others) will try to help, when we can.

And regardless of your intent, what you wrote:

… reads, IMHO, as a pretty broad brush. I think your “reasoning” as to why you said it is spurious, paranoid, and a little conspiracy theorist… just like the AIDS deniers in this thread, no? Hence the comparison.

Esprix

I gave my reasons for what I said and you gave yours to refute me…however even if I accept what YOU say the numbers do not add up

I wasn’t in the beginning even thinking gay vs straight…I had personal reasons for wondering if anal is riskier than vaginal sex

I became sexually active in the late 70s from a small town and when I went to college(in a big city) I went a little nuts and got very wild…I partied all the time and had sex as often as I could…I personally did not use a condom for TEN years after I began having sex…I had tried anal a couple of times but virtually most of the sex I had was vaginal…like 99% of my friends at the time

No one I knew back then(or since) got infected nor did I…I realize we all could just of been lucky…it happens

But I wondered…was it just luck?(rereading this I realized I am also lucky no kid showed up on my doorstep years later calling me daddy too)

Then you figure in the number of people who got infected and who they happened to more than likely be and it raised an interesting hypothesis

IS anal sex more risky than vaginal?

I think it’s a valid question whether you feel offended or not

As to the other point…whether there is a vast conspiracy among the medical community to keep the money rolling in?

I have no idea…I added the question simply because I knew of a similar event in the past that this discussion brought to mind(the ulcer guy)…now even you have not denied something VERY much like what is postulated in this thread HAS happened in the past…hell it’s a matter of record

The FACT that it happened at least once means your side has to go the extra mile to PROVE it is not happening again

There are doctors who get kickbacks from drug companies for prescribing THIS drug instead of THAT drug to their patients…why?

Some drug companies give groups of doctors trips to exotic locations where they “teach” them(via couple hour meetings over a vacation weekend) who would be a good candidate for their particular drug in hopes that the doctor then will favor that drug rather than another one…why?

I have read that Valium is considered one of the most OVER-prescribed drugs given to many who get no real benefit because they don’t really need it in the first place…why?

The time is long past where doctors are considered demigods who can do no wrong…they are people like any other with the same failings the rest of us have

Not all do these things but how does the average person separate the wheat from the chaff?

You don’t have to be a paranoid or a conspiracy theorist to want to be certain of the facts…we ARE talking life and death here

You’d have to be crazy NOT to ask these questions

BTW Up until you mentioned you were gay I didn’t know…I no doubt had read some post of yours that said something about it but I don’t keep track of who is gay or not…I don’t change the points I am trying to make depending on who I am debating

I can see however why you might have suspicions of my motives for posting what I have so far because of others in the past who might not have had the best of intentions

It does occur to me these situations are comparable…you don’t know me and don’t know WHY I am saying what I am…I don’t know those who say various things about AIDS and in the past SOME medical professionals have been less than honest about THEIR reasons for saying what THEY do

I don’t think you paranoid for questioning MY motives…why do you suggest I’m paranoid for questioning the medical establishment on this matter given their history?

WRONG.

The burden of proof rests with the person making the claim. The “ulcer guy” had to provide proof that he was right. He did and the proof held up.

If somebody claims that HIV does not cause AIDS, it’s their responsibility to provide proof of their claim.

I actually agree with you on this point

The ulcer guy(I feel stupid calling him that but I’m too lazy to look him up) had his ducks in a row right from the start because he knew there would be some people who had vested interests in not accepting what he was saying…in the beginning it STILL didn’t help him much

If he had not held his ground he could very well now be the guy in the corner seat in a bar telling whoever would listen how he discovered a new bacteria and being laughed at for his troubles

From what I have read it was a close call DESPITE all his proof

As for HIV=AIDS I am not on EITHER side…it is an interesting situation because you PROBABLY are correct and HIV=AIDS but given there seem to be still so many questions about it and given well…the ulcer guy’s situation in the past and the other points I brought up…I can’t just blindly accept it

I’m not trying to be difficult for difficulty’s sake

I have at least one person who thinks I’m a homophobe and who knows how many who’ve been following this thread who now think I’m an idiot…not exactly what I was going for when I first posted in this thread

The helicobacter plyori causing peptic ulcers model is a classic example of a paradigm shift due to new hypotheses and better data leading to a new paradigm that out performs the old model. It was not a “close call” once he generated the data. You can argue he was either a visionary or something of an impatient, egotistical fool to self experiment, but he followed the classic model of doing experiments and generating powerful new replicable data that supported his hypothesis just like Prusiner’s work with prions, and upended portions of the existing paradigm. If the contrarians expect to be taken seriously they need new experiments using the latest methods, generating, new replicable data that will outperform the current paradigm. Relying on rhetorical debates about old and largely (at this point) irrelevant research is not going to get them there.

As Marshall (the h pylori guy) himself said -

The contrarians need to tack this quote up on their walls.

Here is the fascinating h plylori story in a nutshell

astro

Thanks for providing the link with the guy’s name and his story

I remember reading about this at the time but I didn’t remember all the details

I do think it’s interesting that in a fit of frustration he ingested the bacteria himself to prove he was right as sort of a last ditch effort…I can’t begin to imagine how he must of felt at the time to take such a drastic step

As for this debate about HIV and AIDS…on one hand I don’t see any “deniers” doing something similar but I also realize risk-wise it would take someone pretty foolish to inject themselves with HIV to prove THEIR contention…it would be a lot harder to live with AIDS than it would be to live with an ulcer if they’re wrong

Bolding mine

As I’ve said before I do think there is probably something to the HIV=AIDS theory but not enough is known currently to say 100% and therein lies the debate here

Despite what some have said in this thread I don’t think you necessarily have to be “nuts” to want that certainty

The USA is not allowing Medical Ozone to be used as a treatment/cure for HIV… why? Because the pharmaceutical companies would lose billions of dollars.

There’s a CURE for HIV, it’s Medical Ozone, but you won’t find anyone here in the USA talking about it. They have all of the treatments in Europe/Scandinavia/Pacific Rim… but not in the USA.

If anyone wants to google MEDICAL OZONE, go for it.

There are sites that explain exactly how medical ozone works to fight cancer, HIV , and other diseases as well.

And I don’t believe for a second that HIV causes AIDS, specifically, because they keep redefining what AIDS is, to encapsulate a lot of things… People live with HIV for more than a decade without it becoming AIDS.

They also become CURED of HIV in Europe…

Since you’re making fairly astounding claims that directly contravenes much of what scientific studies tell us about HIV and AIDS, could you possibly provide a reference for a peer reviewed scientific study or two that supports the bold assertion that “medical ozone” cures AIDS, because if that’s the case the insurance companies and HMOs laying out billions for AIDS care would love to hear about it.

I realize you may consider telling us to “google it” is reference enough, but humor us please with a peer reviewed citation or two. We would be ever so grateful.

I said HIV, not AIDS, as far as curing… but anyway…

http://www.oxytherapy.com/oxyfiles/oxy00334.html

http://www.appliedozone.com/references.html
(scroll down til you see this “INTERNATIONAL M.D. LIST 33 MAJOR HUMAN DISEASES SUCCESSFULLY TREATED WITH OZONE”

http://www.edelsoncenter.com/Diseases_Treatment/medical_ozone_therapy_yp.htm

http://www.ozongesellschaft.de/index-e.html

***** that should get you started in reading… enjoy.

Feisty-

Four sites pushing product and making broad claims. Assertions that ozone is a miracle cure all not backed up by data.

One of the sites does mention a study published in a peer reviewed journal. It does not link to the study or give data.
The Applied Ozone site does contain this

and

 The concept of toxins acccumulating in the colon and causing auto intoxication has been throroughly disproven.

They endorse a disproven concept.

They continue to sell a product that was fined by the FTC for making false claims.

Does this seem like a company you should trust?

Sorry must be getting blind in my old age. Lots of cheerleading, but I didn’t see a single peer reviewed study cited that claimed “medical ozone” sucessfully removed HIV from an infected person. Some claimed killing of HIV on contact, but lots of things will kill HIV in and out of blood, the trick is getting them to do this inside the body without killing the patient. Ozone is an effective antibacterial and disinfectant agent for certian applications. So is bleach.

Out of curiosity re your claimed “suppression of information” scenario, the insurance/HMO industry is at least as powerful influence-wise as the pharmaceutical and medical special interests, and some would say considerably more powerful. It would seem to be in their best interests to limit their expeditures if medical oxygen therapy is as effective as you seem to indicate. Why has this not happened? Why are the insurance companies somehow cowed by the medical establishment that normally kow-tows to them on most other matters, because they write the checks. Why not this time? 'Tis a puzzlement.

Oh and by the way feistyALgal this site may be of interest to you.

Myths, Scams and Flat Out Lies

I guess we’ll all just believe what we choose to believe.

There are at least 15 pages to google in regards to medical ozone.

Here’s another site:

http://www.odatus.com/aids.html

But that’s ok, I won’t try to convince you further. Let’s all just believe what we want to believe, and be done with it.

… moving on to the next topic

Another site pushing O3 products.
I haven’t tried this myself, but maybe you should try plugging “medical ozone” into a search at www.quackwatch.org.

As for this “Let’s all believe what we want to believe” stuff…this isn’t that kind of forum.

The real world scientific relevance of your references is practically non-existent, and consist mainly of classic handwaving hucksterism, and yet you are offended when people question your claims. It is screamingly evident that whatever your level of education is, you have neither the educational nor operational background to distinguish real scientific assertions from shinola. I mean come on, it’s almost comical how classic the snake oil pitch is here.

At some point don’t you ever stop and consider that the reason medical science maintains that absurd laundry list style claims like the ones you reference are full of crap, is not because medical researchers are evil and ignorant, but because the claims are indeed over-reaching and non-sensical. If ozone really was some miracle, wide ranging anodyne insurance companies would be all over it. Doesn’t any of this drill itself into your skull at some point, or is the notion that you and your fellow enlightened ozone freethinkers are in possession of this pearl of truth in the face of oppression just too much of a mental drug to resist?

Boy, they sure come out of the woodwork, don’t they! “Ozone cures HIV and 33 other diseases!!!” heh. Some days the ignorance seems almost too huge to take arms against.

I’ll stick with the orthodox approach, thanks. With each new breakthrough in treatment, my HIV patients are living longer and better.

QtM, MD

Google =/= peer-reviewed journals and sound medical research.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet? If so, if you don’t send me 5,000.00 in the next 5 minutes you and 5 of your friends will have BAD LUCK for the next 5 YEARS!!!!!!!!@#!#!!!

:rolleyes:

Oh, no - we’re having much fun with this one, thanks.

Esprix

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2657199a7144,00.html