Hobbes was just plain terrible

[Johnny_Bravo]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I don’t think that’s the connection she’s making, but you might be right.

You pointed out in another thread how very conscious Tolkien was of class and bloodlines, and it really shines through in the relationship between Frodo and Sam. He also calls Frodo “master” quite a bit, which is an artifact of the British caste system that I wouldn’t expect an American 2nd grader to know about. So I could see how all that might leak in around the edges of her perception. Or maybe she just knows a skinny brown kid named Sam. Or maybe she’s a kid with a progressive dad who’s teaching her all the right stuff. Could be anything.

But shit, at the end of the day Sam is one of the strongest characters in the entire history of Middle Earth. He bore the ring and then gave it away willingly. He sacrificed his elfish treasure for the good of the entire Shire. Tolkien painted him as a working-class schlub, yes, but as a glorious schlub. There are worse associations that she could make.

[RivkahChaya]

@thorny_locust

Boys, or at least white boys, don’t seem to be expected to learn this trick.

They aren’t expected to, and for a long time, school readers were guilty of including very, very little with girls as protagonists, with the excuse that since boys on the whole were weaker readers than girls, it was necessary to cater to them. However, The Wizard of Oz is one of the most popular children’s books ever, and has not been out of print in 121 years. The Oz books on the whole are very popular. I have read The Wizard of Oz to mixed groups of children (boy/girl mixes), and the boys were just as rapt as the girls.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Johnny_Bravo

You pointed out in another thread how very conscious Tolkien was of class and bloodlines, and it really shines through in the relationship between Frodo and Sam. He also calls Frodo “master” quite a bit, which is an artifact of the British caste system that I wouldn’t expect an American 2nd grader to know about. So I could see how all that might leak in around the edges of her perception. Or maybe she just knows a skinny brown kid named Sam. Or maybe she’s a kid with a progressive dad who’s teaching her all the right stuff. Could be anything.

We had some conversations about that: I love the relationship between Frodo and Sam, except for how Sam always calls Frodo “master.” I’m no great believer in the sanctity of the written word, especially when I’m doing a read-aloud, so we workshopped some replacements for “master”.

“Sweetie,” “pumpkin,” and “honeybunch” broke the mood, so I settled on “friend” or “my friend” as a substitute.

[Spice_Weasel]

@LSLGuy

I expect women find C&H cute but ultimately annoying as there aren’t any good roles for the females young or old.

On the contrary, Susie was solid female representation! Of course she was the more sensible one! Watterson offered a pitch-perfect glimpse of how absolutely bonkers boys were in my eyes. Pass the tea, Mr. Bun.

As for whether I find it “cute,” I own the deluxe edition hardbound three-volume Complete Calvin & Hobbes. Those books were my childhood.

@thorny_locust

But there was, and to some extent still is, an impression among a lot of people that boys can only be interested in books with male protagonists;

Don’t get me started on “Women’s Fiction.”

[Johnny_Bravo]

I might listen to the audiobooks all over again if they’d re-record it with every instance of “master” replaced with “honeybunch.”

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@thorny_locust

I read Calvin and Hobbes with a childlike mind, for the most part. And, as a child, (and often still, except that now I notice it) I routinely put myself in the place of male characters in stories. In retrospect, this probably had a good deal to do with them having all, or nearly all, the good parts; but I think many girls learn to do it. Boys, or at least white boys, don’t seem to be expected to learn this trick.

I actually think it’s more on the adults around them than on the boys. It’s very, very rarely been an issue that I’ve read a book to a class and had any boy object to a girl protagonist (and I’m pretty conscious of making sure I read lots of books about non-white-boy protagonists). But I’ve had an assistant teacher object to reading a book with a group of boys because she thought they wouldn’t put up with a girl protagonist.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Johnny_Bravo

I might listen to the audiobooks all over again if they’d re-record it with every instance of “master” replaced with “honeybunch.”

It’d be cool from Sam. But I do a mean Gollum voice, and having him whine, “We swears to serve the honeybunch of the Precious!” or “Honeybunch betrayed us! Wicked tricksy honeybunch!” would be too creepy even for me.

[thorny_locust]

@Melbourne

Sam is the gardener . She’s white and her default is that the servants are black?

That is a point. Might be worth figuring out why she thinks he’s Black.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’m no great believer in the sanctity of the written word, especially when I’m doing a read-aloud, so we workshopped some replacements for “master”.

Makes a lot of sense in that case; but she knew you were doing it, right? Reading different words than are there in the print can confuse kids who are learning to read.

@Johnny_Bravo

at the end of the day Sam is one of the strongest characters in the entire history of Middle Earth.

Yeah. Sam is a hero. No question. He comes through; and he comes through when others are failing.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I actually think it’s more on the adults around them than on the boys. It’s very, very rarely been an issue that I’ve read a book to a class and had any boy object to a girl protagonist (and I’m pretty conscious of making sure I read lots of books about non-white-boy protagonists). But I’ve had an assistant teacher object to reading a book with a group of boys because she thought they wouldn’t put up with a girl protagonist

Oh, it’s very definitely taught to the boys by some of the adults. I think a lot of them learn it, though.

[gdave]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

My White second-grade daughter was disappointed in the Fellowship of the Rings movie. “None of the characters were how I imagined them!” she said. “Sam is supposed to be skinny and Black!”

@Melbourne

Sam is the gardener . She’s white and her default is that the servants are black? I read that as saying something about America.

@thorny_locust

That is a point. Might be worth figuring out why she thinks he’s Black.

It’s possible that she just read Tolkien’s actual description of hobbits, who were “nut-brown”, with “long brown fingers”, and dark, curly hair. Tolkien does describe the Fallohides as “fair”, and Frodo, Merry, and Pippen have Fallohide blood, but Sam is definitely not (the fact that the hobbit “gentry” are fair-skinned while the common folk are “brown” is another issue, but he was probably just describing the contrast between folks that work outdoors for a living and the more leisured gentry).

Now, where she got an idea that a hobbit that eats seven meals a day is “skinny”, I don’t know.

[Johnny_Bravo]

He’s skinny by the end of it!

[thorny_locust]

@gdave

It’s possible that she just read Tolkien’s actual description of hobbits, who were “nut-brown”, with “long brown fingers”

Now there’s another lovely example of the walls inside my own head. I must have read that. Hell, I must have read that a dozen times, because I must have read the books a dozen times. And my mind nevertheless defaulted everybody in LOTR to about the same color, somewhere around my own; except for maybe Galadriel, who I always see as Very Blonde.

[DesertDog]

@thorny_locust

Yeah. Sam is a hero. No question. He comes through; and he comes through when others are failing.

It’s from Tolkien’s experiences in the Great War, especially the Battle of the Somme. Sam is Tommy Atkins, asked to do an impossible task by their betters – of whom JRR is part – and somehow through determination and sheer grit, managed to pull it off.

According to John Garth, Kitchener’s army at once marked existing social boundaries and counteracted the class system by throwing everyone into a desperate situation together. Tolkien was grateful, writing that it had taught him “a deep sympathy and feeling for the Tommy; especially the plain soldier from the agricultural counties”.[58]
(Wiki)

[JohnT]

Cool cool cool. Can we cancel Snoopy as well?

[ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness]

@JohnT

Can we cancel Snoopy as well?

Dude was constantly kissing Lucy without her consent, even hiding under water at a Halloween party to slip her the apple, so yeah.

[DKW]

Damn, this did indeed blow up. I have work tomorrow, so I don’t have time to go through all 70 responses right now, so I’ll just add a few pointers.

[No, I never owned a cat. I’ve heard all kinds of dissenting opinions of the practice, none which I really can support or fight. Personally I think they’re really cute as long as you don’t get too close, but that’s as far as I can say. I have one younger sister. Here’s what I remember about her: strong-willed, artistically minded (she’s done everything from Latin dance to Opus drawings to comic strips lampooning George HW Bush) unusual tastes in music (she introduced me to Men Without Hats and They Might Be Giants, among others), loves to travel, can’t watch or debate television enough, model student, messy living space but still knows where everything is, bookworm, science lover, and two children, no more, no less. At no point did rampant loathing, bitterness, or terror at each other’s presence ever enter the picture. At the absolute worst we didn’t speak to each other for a while.]

I read Watterson’s take on the true nature of Hobbes; he deliberately left it ambiguous and made it very clear that he’s neither a figment of Hobbes imagination or a doll that magically comes to life. The former was always plainly obvious to me…Calvin would never imagine such a nakedly hostile companion unless he had a massive masochistic streak or some truly messed up psychological issue, neither of which there is any evidence of in the strip. I don’t by the “part of Calvin’s personality” explanation either; Hobbes is far too cold and calculating, he expresses creativity a lot differently, and he lies, constantly. If anything he’s an analogue for Calvin’s dad.

More to the point, knowing that there’s this free-willed, uncontrollable, and extremely malevolent entity who can strike at Calvin at will and without warning, I’ve always been baffled as how we’re supposed to like this arrangement than feel profound pity, or perhaps anger. Keep in mind that the roughhousing and “good-natured” ribbing is completely one sided. Hobbes fires off insults, Hobbes slams Clavin into the pavement, Hobbes gets in Calvin’s way, Hobbes runs up the score on Calvin in football, and Calvin can’t retaliate because he’s afraid he’d get creamed even further or Hobbes nature prevents any kind of payback in the first place.

I don’t buy that it’s not going to do any lasting harm, either. Anyone who follows boxing will tell you that the really nasty health problems aren’t caused by that one big knockout punch, but by hundreds and hundreds of normal punches, month after month, year after year. Taking one NFL’s Greatest Hits blast to the belly may not be serious, but day after day after day, I can’t but help but think that he’s going to get royally messed up down the line…and he can’t or won’t do anything to stop it. Because of “friendship”.

I’ll have a more comprehensive (and hopefully more coherent) response this weekend.

[GreenWyvern]

Coming up next:

• Is Garfield a psychopath? Does Jon have an intellectual disability? How can this abusive relationship be allowed to continue?

• Is Mr Dithers breaking labor laws in his treatment of Dagwood Bumstead? Can Herb Woodley be sued for borrowing tools and never returning them?

• Is it acceptable for Hägar the Horrible to glorify violence and raids on foreigners?

• Are Snoopy’s memories of the Daisy Hill Puppy Farm an indictment of the foster care system? Is his unhappy puppyhood the cause of his retreating into a violent fantasy life of fighting the Red Baron?

• Why does Charlie Brown’s chronic depression and low self-esteem not receive the needed support from his family and teachers? Instead he is bullied and taken advantage of by the other kids. What kind of message does this send about the treatment of mental health issues?

[Chronos]

@DKW

Hobbes fires off insults, Hobbes slams Clavin into the pavement, Hobbes gets in Calvin’s way, Hobbes runs up the score on Calvin in football,…

IIRC, the one time we’re told the score in a sport the two of them are playing, it’s “17 to Q”. It’s not even logically possible to tell who’s ahead, much less whether they’re “running up” the score.

[running_coach]

@Chronos

IIRC, the one time we’re told the score in a sport the two of them are playing, it’s “17 to Q”. It’s not even logically possible to tell who’s ahead, much less whether they’re “running up” the score.

That’s Calvinball, a sport with only one rule: All rules are made up on the spot and once used, may never be used again.
ETA: there’s two rules. The other is you must wear a mask.

Calvinball

[thorny_locust]

@DKW

At no point did rampant loathing, bitterness, or terror at each other’s presence ever enter the picture.

Nor does it either between Hobbes and Calvin, or between Susie and Calvin.

@DKW

this free-willed, uncontrollable, and extremely malevolent entity

He’s not malevolent. They’re just wrestling, like two kittens or even grown tomcats who are friends. Bits of fur flying one moment, washing each other curled up together the next; no hard feelings, no significant injury either intended or produced.

@DKW

I never owned a cat.

I’ve lived with quite a few of them; including a number of combinations who played exactly like that.

My siblings were two much older sisters; but I’ve certainly heard people describe the behavior of some close-in-age sibs, especially boys but sometimes girls, the same way. It’s exaggerated for the strip; they’ve got Comic Book Concussion/Injury Immunity, which you’re entirely right doesn’t exist in real life, but it’s a standard convention in fiction. All sorts of things are exaggerated in the comic (and in a lot of others) for humor: do you think we’re actually supposed to believe that Calvin’s sledding on mountains and routinely sledding off cliffs? He’s going over a minor bump and winding up unhurt in a snowdrift. The cliff’s in his imagination – because he thinks imagined cliffs are fun. He’s not imagining being actually dead or maimed at the bottom!

In the same way, whether Hobbes is real or stuffed, the attack is a game. Hobbes and Calvin both know the difference, just as my wrestling cats know the difference between that and an actual cat fight.

[Darren_Garrison]

@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness

Dude was constantly kissing Lucy without her consent, even hiding under water at a Halloween party to slip her the apple, so yeah.

Lucy practices psychology without a license, which in addition to be utterly unacceptable and likely to cause lasting harm is also highly illegal, meaning that she must tread lightly about contacting the police over the harassment–a fact that the sexual predator Snoopy must be fully aware of. It is a tragic, intolerable situation to represent as good clean fun.