Holocaust revisionism

Great Debates
21

Rhetorical & semantic misinterpretations. Aaargh ! Dex is no more saying that all WASPS are “deniers” than Nebuli is saying that all Eastern Orthodox are.

I do question, however, where APB9999 sets the line between deniers and the 2 kinds of “revisionists”; let’s call 'em 1, 2a & 2b. His description of “2a” really falls under the category of deniers:

That erases the “2a” category of revisionists that are common amongst some of the groups nebuli referred to, who themselves suffered greatly at the hands of the Nazis, but who feel their losses and atrocities are either forgotten, or somehow perceived to be not as significant.

I’m not saying I’d agree, but rather that the “2a” statement “we had our Holocaust too, please recognize that” cannot be equated with the morally bankrupt “Just a few drunks out getting rowdy, the whole thing was overblown…”

22

Nebuli

Yeah, exactly. It’s an assertion, not an implication. It would be very simply for Ckdexhavn to come on the board and say that is not what I meant, I meant this. Since he has not offered to make it clearer, it’s clear to me, we are left with that outrageous statement and what he meant it to mean, which is false.

It would be bad enough if this statement came from a member but that it comes from an ADMINISTRATOR is frghtening. Is this a Policy Statement from the SDMB, or are these CKDexhavn’s own bigoted views?

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

23

jorge

ckdexhavn

This biased statement is not rhetorical or semantical. It is clearly a swipe at Anglo Saxon Protestants. It clearly means: if you want to understand the mindset of Holocaust deniers, who would want to?, you have to be a WASP because they hold those views. The “other than” is clue to understanding the intent of that statement.

Again, if ckdexhaven meant something else, or spoke in error, he has the next few days to amend it.

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

24

Whoa!

It has been slightly less than twenty-four hours since he posted that original statement, and FIFTEEN hours since posted your first challenge.

I hardly think you are entitled to assume that because Dex doesn’t check the board every fifteen hours, he is admitting to your accusation – which, from my general sense of reading the guy’s writings, is absolutely untrue.

  • Rick
25

Rick

Fair enough.

I did not challenge but asked for a clarification. If he has posted to other boards during that time would that not indicate to you that POSSIBLY he meant what he said? I do not know, you do not know, we all do not know what he meant. Only ckdexhavn knows for sure, but those words indicate his meaning. It that correct, Rick?

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

26

John John,

Again, you see Dex’s comments out of context. If you continue to leave out the sentence that qualifies the paragraph the meaning changes

That paragraph has an entirely different meaning than your misquote

Now, if you want to argue that Dex is saying that all Holocaust deniers are WASP’s, you have a case. But for you to claim that Dex is calling all Anglo-Saxon Protestants racist, is way off base.

27

ckdexhavn

Actually Adam, the insertion of that qualifiyng sentence makes it worse -“if you want to understand the mindset of holocaust deniers? it’s very simply,” they are held by WASP’s.

ck

Embolden word, Jews, inserted by me for illustration.

Now how does that statemnet work now? See?

Again, we do not know what he meant, only he does, and for whatever reason he has chosen not to further clarify his meaning, or apologize for an error, if there is one.

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

28

Is it open season on moderators/administrators again? Damn! I wish they would publish a schedule. Maybe they could also publish a map of clues to aid those posters who are comprehension-impaired.

The original statement made an association between holocaust deniers and bigoted WASPs. This association has been justly challenged upon the grounds that it is incomplete, many holocaust deniers are bigoted muslims, arabs, etc. This is a subject appropriate for debate, though I suspect it would be a very short one.

The original statement said nothing and implied nothing about WASPS as a class. To argue otherwise is to imply a lack of logical insight or comprehension on the part of the complainer.

[sub]The above clues are sample clues and may not be redistributed by parties lacking the intelligence to understand them. Free dissemination of said clues does not imply an agreement by the distributor to provide future clues without remuneration.[/sub]

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

29

SM

No, not at all, just trying to make sure the standards are equal for staff and members alike.
SM

I ask that you reread that post. It CLEARLY highlihts WASps’ as a class. It did not mention any other class of people. It was class specific -WHITE, ANGLO SAXON, that is redundant, Protestants.

I realize how tempting it is for some of you to curry favor and defend the adminstrators and moderators but you really should expect, and get, the same standard from all that post here. That goes for Cecil too.

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

30

Original Post. (not the OP)

Shall we parse this?

sentence 1) Simple query. Implication – what follows will provide insight into the mindset of holocaust deniers.
sentence 2)
clause 1: Assertion-- the insight is simply gained.
clause 2: Assertion – It (the mindset) is the same one that implies non-WASPs are not human.
phrase 3: Assertion – the same mindset probably carries sexist elements, too.

So, the statement clearly equates the holocaust denial mindset with the mindset that denies humanity to non-WASPs. The statement makes no implication that only WASPs would posess that attitude. While that is not an unreasonable supposition, it is supplied by our preconceptions not by the content of the post. The statement makes no claims that ANY WASPs hold said attitude. We have made that inference (again, not unreasonably). The statement says nothing about other attitudes which might also illuminate holocaust denial; therefore it does not deny that other groups might posess a similar mindset. There is absolutely nothing in teh statement which can be reasonably interpreted as an assertion that ALL WASPs posess said mindset. There is also nothing in the statement which can reasonably be interpreted as an assertion that ONLY WASPs posess such a mindset. Repeating a misinterpretation many times does not make it more accurate.

Perhaps an analogy will help illustrate.
[analogy]
“I don’t understand oxidation.”

“Well, if you want to understand oxidation you can look at the way rust corodes the surface of a material.”

“Hey – you just said all materials rust!!”

"No he didn’t, but he did imply that oxidation takes place only in rust – what about fire?

Take two clues and don’t call me in the morning.
[/analogy]

Now for a real quote:

This is called an ad hominem digression. It is an attempt to imply that my position is invalid because I have an ulterior motive. Of course, the motive you supply is both absurd and insulting. Regardless, rather than distracting readers from the obviously illogic of your position it simply provides another example of the same.

Please read my disclaimer in the last post. Further lessons are almost guaranteed to cost you.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

31

Johnjohn, if you see CK’s statement one way, and everyone else that has read it sees it the opposite way, will you concede that there might be just the tiniest possibility that you read it wrong? He says he didn’t mean it that way, and nobody but you takes it that way. Take the hint, please.

32

Spiritus Mundi

Yes, let us parse it.

    • It is NOT a simply query, anymore than the question “are all black people niggers?” It is a loaded question that appeals to the emotions and bias. What follows is NOT insight but that person’s interpretation of WHO holocaust deniers are and your subsequent approval of his assertion.
    • Insight is NOT gained but the meaning and intent of the question is questioned and further clarification asked.
    • It outrageously asserts that only Anglo Saxon Protestants would understand that racist mindset, which is false premise.

4)- An assumption of sexism not supported by fact or one that has been developed by poster.

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

33

me[[[[I realize how tempting it is for some of you to curry favor and defend the adminstrators and moderators… ]]]]]

SM
[/quote]
This is called an ad hominem digression. It is an attempt to imply that my position is invalid because I have an ulterior motive. Of course, the motive you supply is both absurd and insulting. Regardless, rather than distracting readers from the obviously illogic of your position it simply provides another example of the same.
[/quote]

Aren’t YOU doing exactly what YOU accuse me of? Isn’t mine a simply query too?

me -actual unedited quote

Would you like to take a stab at answering my last question,Spiritus?** but you really should expect, and get, the same standard from all that post here. That goes for Cecil too**

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

34

Spiritus Mundi said:

It’s always open season on mods and admins – and you don’t even need a license!

But more to the point, I’ve noticed that for John John, it’s also always open season on Jews. Chaim Keller says something in one thread, and JJ harasses him with repeated messages completely misconstruing what he said. Dex makes a comment here, same thing. And I’ve seen it before as well, though I can’t point to specific examples right now. I’m sure he’ll jump up and down and whine about how horrible I am now, but I’ve heard he even acted this way on the old AOL board (as Cyberian). This type of behavior gets real old real quick.

35

slythe

CKDexhavn says he didn’t mean that? Where did he say that? If he posts that he didn’t mean that on the board I will accept it, regardless of what the statement says. But he hasn’t done that.

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

36

David, I’m not going to jump up and down about anything. You simply are mistaken. I don’t think you’re horrible at all, but I do see a pattern of you seeing things differently than how they are intended, which is what YOU are accusing me of. Now, that’s funny.

Incidently, Dave, Chaim was not harrassed by me at all and I’m sure he would not say that he was. Ask him. He was polite and I was polite. I even acted with prudence and discontinued the “debate” when I realized that I as dealing with a person that thought the Bible was sacrosanct. I respect him for that but DO NOT SHARE THOSE BELIEFS Do you?

As far as the outrageos statement made by ckdexhaven, let him say what he meant. We both don’t know, but his words did make a perjorative comparison of Anglo Saxon Protestants to racists. How could you possibly know what he meant unless he told you?

Your comment on me thinking it’s always “open season on Jews” is not supported by fact. Show me one post I made that demonstrates your paranoid view? That you bought into the fiction of me being Cyberian is even funnier.

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

37

Let me make an additional comment here, it really doesn’t matter how many friends or quislings you can muster to back up your assertion that you meant this, instead of that, while your words mean that. This is not a popularity contest, with the winner being the one that can accumulate the most people to lie for him.

I have no friends on this board, NOT ONE. I post as an individual with individual points of view.

You can destroy your now by worrying about tomorrow. Janis Joplin

38

Hello Jorge, I’m just wandering back to this thread. It’s easy to get caught up in other threads and forget the ones that have discussions outstanding; I’m glad nothing of interest has been said since I last posted, except for this:

Yes, I’d agree completely. I didn’t mean in any way to imply that 2a included those seeking to expand the compass of what is generally thought of when people think about the Holocaust. I’m not sure the word ‘revisionist’ should apply to this group at all, though, since they are not really disputing even minor facts about the holocaust (usually); they are simply trying to shift emphasis.

There were a lot of groups whose tragedy during the Holocaust has been overshadowed, at least in the U.S., by the undeniably horrible mistreatment of the Jews; but it was not the Jews alone who were abused and that should be recognized. It’s never exactly been secret that the Nazis persecuted a lot of other groups, too, but it does tend to get mentioned only in passing, since the largest extermination effort was clearly directed at the Jews.

39

John John:

Those of us who have a basic reading comprehension above the third grade level (and who do not have any personal reasons for deliberately misreading the text) note that Dex’s comment was framed in the context of

and went on to suggest that that “small handful”

Since the owners of these sorts of web sites (http://www.melvig.org/ http://www.iahushua.com/),,) the KKK, and most of the loonies in Idaho and Montana are, indeed, WASPs, his statement makes perfect sense without any further amplification. (I suppose you could drag up Farrakhan as an anti-semite, but I do not recall Louie denying the Holocaust.)

I suspect that Dex will not bother to respond to this thread at this point. Dex, Rowan, and Ranger Jeff all stated publicly in September of 1998 that they were no longer willing to feed into this sort of silliness and I have noted that they have, indeed, refused to respond to this sort of baiting. Regardless of whether your question is raised by anti-semitism, a personal grudge against Dex, or a basic lack of reading skills, Dex’s choice to not respond is consistent with his and your personal history.

And this is absolutely hilarious! You deny being Cyberian54 and Optamissed when every post you make reinforces the evidence for that (not to mention the fact that you have responded directly to people who have addressed “Cyb” on their posts on several occasions. Sheeesh, John, your style of writing is very distinctive and even your subject matter (challenging Jewish beliefs, insisting on closed borders for immigration, making personal attacks on the Clintons, etc.) is straight out of the Cyberian54/Optamissed poster’s manual.

Then

Excuse me? People who point out your lack of reading comprehension are traitors to their country?

Since everyone initially comes to this MB anonymously with no “friends” to begin with, you might consider how people acquire “friends.” Even posters who have very vocal detractors generally have a number of defenders, as well. If you have been unable to attract any “friends,” perhaps you are the problem?

So DavidB, Ursa Major, Adam Yax, Bricker, Jorge, Spritus Mundi, slythe, and (of course) I are all lying for Dex? You wouldn’t want to indicate any actual lies that have been posted here, would you?

You will get the last word, here, John, because I won’t feed your strangeness on this point, either. However, you might consider the fact that you are not persuading anyone of your opinions and consider just why you insist on taking obviously false positions for no purpose. (Got a martyr complex, maybe?)

Tom~

40

No need to say more.