Bush::::
Ooops, supposed to be “Blush:::::”
I guess Bush is a different thing.
LOL, yeah, like, kinda!
My turn.
There’s a very touchy subject here. People hate gays, in my opinion, for the same reason they hate Jews, blacks, or any person or idea they don’t understand.
There’s fear involved. There’s also ignorance involved. This isn’t an insult. Ignorance on a subject doesn’t infer being ignorant. I know I’ve a great deal of ignorance when it comes to performing surgery, for example.
People don’t like being afraid, so they’ll try to transform it into something else, as someone mentioned before. That’s a fact. There’s work involved with learning about the subject, and the most afraid will think that learning means “doing.” Which isn’t true.
If they think they must “do” to learn, they think they’ve got to be gay, and they don’t like the thought of doing that because they’re afraid of it. So they feel trapped, unable to face their fear.
If they, as someone suggested, spent time with some gay people, the ignorance would vanish. They’d not have to BE gay, just learn that they’re just like you and me, but choose a partner of the same gender.
ON THE OTHER HAND:
Most gay and lesbian people aren’t innocent in the cause of hatred towards homosexuals. A great deal of them carry a major chip on their shoulders, and tend to be very anti-heterosexual. They assume that a person who’s not gay doesn’t understand. It’s hard to tell a gay person that you don’t care what their sexual preference is, because it often gets twisted around.
This is often coupled with the gay person’s inborn need to announce their sexual preference. When my uncle “came out of the closet” he found the need to state that he’s gay in every conversation…often more than once in it. It wasn’t an enjoyable thing, and I spent a great deal of time avoiding him because of it. Not because him being gay bothered me. Because I don’t feel the need to discuss it at every turn is enjoyable. I don’t walk into a room and say “I’m straight.” It’s not anyone’s business but my own. Yet, homosexuals feel that the way to teach others is to walk into the room and say, “I’m gay.”
It’s a two-way street for blame when it comes to hatred against homosexuals. If both parties would back off, realize their faults, and work to correct them, we’d have a much better world. Dreaming, true. But that’s my belief.
Very nice!! I agree. I don’t feel the need to announce my sexual orientation to the world and I don’t paticuarly care to hear about yours. As a Christian, I believe homosexual realations are wrong. That doesn’t keep me from liking them as people any more than it keeps me from liking Byte, whom I also think is wrong about certain things… but that’s a whole new thread.
Name one.
No, you assume that they assume that.
Inborn? So much for homosexuality being a sin.
Yes you do. Every picture on your desk, every mention of “my boyfriend,” every “he’s cute” is an announcement that you’re straight. That said, I’ll admit that people who have recently come out often yammer on too much about it. Kind of like people who have recently become engaged.
How exactly do homosexuals discriminate against straights in the workplace, government, schools and churches? I must have forgot. How many people have died in “straight-bashing” incidents last year? I forgot that, too.
Jesus saves… Gretzky grabs the rebound… He Scores!
That reply almost strikes me as too absurd to respond to.
First of all, as for “name one.” I could name you quite a few, some who I call friends, who KNOW they have a chip on their shoulder…and even tease themselves about it. To “name” one would be wrong.
Secondly, as for me assuming they assume, that would be true if I’d not witnessed it firsthand. My comments are based on many years of observation, and many, many case examples.
Thirdly, I am not anti-gay. Don’t you DARE put words into my mouth. You don’t have that right.
Fourth, I don’t announce it every day. Let’s see. Nope. No pictures of the boyfriend on my desk…or at home, for that matter. Hm. Lemme see. No ring on my finger, but then, there are same-sex marriages, and even my Uncle wears one, so I guess that no longer states my sexual preference. When I said “I don’t feel the need to constantly say ‘I’m straight’” I wasn’t even speaking in metaphors. I was speaking about them actually coming out and saying the very words “I’m gay” at least three times per conversation.
Which they do, and I saw my Uncle do it. It’s not the same thing as being a newlywed. Unless you’re intending to prove my point that to those types who go out and feel that they must announce it…they are married to their sexual preference, not the person they might love.
I walk out on the street, introduce my boyfriend. I’m stating “He’s the man I love.”
I walk out on the street say, “I’m straight.” My boyfriend’s no longer part of the picture. He no longer counts. All that matters is my sexual preference.
Regarding the people dying to gay-bashing rallies. I in NO way approve of that, and think it’s more a horror than most things that get publicity. But that’s not the issue I was bringing up.
I’m talking about the need to over-compensate. It’s a curse some feminists have, and a curse some blacks have. Persecuted for so long, so we want equality. How do we gain equality? Insult and slander and hate…exclude…other people. Reverse discrimination.
I’m for women’s equality. I’m not for women’s superiority.
I’m for racial equality. I’m not for racial superiority.
I’m for the equality between sexual preferences. I’m not for one sexual preference making anyone better than another.
The ones I was speaking of (which happen to be many of them) are the ones who feel that in order to be equal, they have to “even the scales of hatred.”
And as for killing people in straight-pride parades…maybe that’s a part of my point. We don’t have straight-pride parades, because sexual preference should be a personal thing, not a public thing.
The very fact that they have to have parades to announce to the masses, “I’m gay” is in my opinion, wrong. I don’t care what your sexual preference is. It’s YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE.
And I don’t believe it a sin.
It’s a personal preference. Simple as that.
Now, to deal with the other issue: Flaming. There was no need for you to go into this board and do all you can to insult me and make me angry. The proper response is to say, “I respect your opinion, but mine differs. This is why.”
You didn’t do that. Instead, you started insulting me, and making some pretty hefty assumptions about my personal opinions on homosexuality and its “rightness.”
I don’t think homosexuality is right…FOR ME. I think it’s right for my uncle. He’s much happier now than he was with his ex-wife.
Morally? Who am I to tell a person who they can love?
But who are they to force it in my face?
THAT is my point.
Try to have some respect for other peoples, including mine, opinions before you judge them and insult them next time.
Well said, manhattan!
byteoart,
First up, I’m not accusing you of being anti-gay in any way. Having said that, I have to agree with what I thought manhattan was saying completely.
Given that neither you nor I can read minds (please, please let me be right on that one) neither is qualified to generalise about the feelings of gay people generally, beyond what we see in the people we know. Not one of the gay friends (or acquaintances) I have seems even remotely to bear a grudge.
Evidence for this generalisation? (Beyond your personal experience, that is, which is no more evidence for your point than I would have if I tried to claim the exact opopsite)
How else do you let your friends and family know that your identity doesn’t fit their expectations?
I’m not going to deny that there are heterophobic (is that a real word?) gays, but if hatred is a two-way street then there’s juggernauts on one side and scooters on the other…
(that last analogy courtesy of Awkward Sentences-R-Us)
I never touched him, ref, honest!
You misunderstand. There was no insult express or implied in my comments. I was simply pointing out that you are incorrect in the introduction to the second part of your post, which was,
In fact, most (even substantially all) gay and lesbian people are “innocent in the cause of hatred towards homosexuals.”
I’m pleased that you don’t find homosexuality to be a sin (I’ll also admit to being a touch surprised. We all have our prejudices to work on, I suppose.) But even in your tolerance, you generalize in a way that assigns blame to the victims of discrimination. You extrapolate a few personal experiences into an incorrect understanding of the whole.
As to the whole ‘talking about my love, not my sexuality’ canard, I could easily say that newly engaged people are mostly talking about their diamonds. Did the people love each other less before the engagement? Of course not. They want to talk about the change in status. The same is true about some newly out gays. They have a new status (out, not in) and they want to talk about. We agree that it’s frequently annoying, but we disagree as to why. I didn’t shun my sister when she went on incessantly about her upcoming wedding, or my dad when he wouldn’t shut up about his retirement, and I’m disappointed that you shunned your uncle because he wanted to annoy you with his new status.
Regarding gay-bashing, I was in no way implying that you support or even tolerate it. I was merely pointing out that there is not, as you said, “a two-way street for blame.”
I have no idea where “parades” came up, but FTR, gays (and others) have affirmation parades precisely because of the intolerance of society. If being gay had never been a taboo, there would never have been reason for a parade the message of which is essentially “Here’s what we think of Your taboo, and here’s how many thousands of us think it, whatever our actual orientation.”
Jesus saves… Gretzky grabs the rebound… He Scores!
#include hijack
#include disclaimer
Ditto for St. Pat’s day parades for the Irish, Chinese New Year’s parades, or Black Power demonstrations.
They’re all a way for a minority (and often oppressed) group to shout “We’re here and we aren’t leaving.”
-andros-
andros- Don’t forget Columbus Day for us Italians.
However, how many “Jewish Pride” parades do you see, despite the fact that to this day there is a great deal of anti-semitism in the United States alone?
And as for the need to announce it or say it…I agree, it SHOULD be said to the family and friends.
Once. Maybe twice.
But three times a conversation, every conversation?
“It’s a lovely day out, I’m going to go for a walk, and I’m gay. I’m not very happy with my job, and am going to take some computer courses, and I’m gay.”
This goes on and on. He’s known he was gay for oooh. 7-9 years, now, and has a steady boyfriend. He STILL does it.
Now, I’d think we’re smart enough to have gotten the picture a long while ago. Even newlyweds stop doing it. But to show you how it’s different than newlyweds, let me show you how you’re comparing apples and oranges.
I’m in love. He proposes. He gives me a ring, I’m excited at both the ring and the future in store for me. I show it off to my friends and family. I’m giddy for what, a year or so after the wedding. It’s still about him. Granted, the diamonds are an issue to boast over, but it’s symbolizing the love we have, not that we’re heterosexual.
My uncle is gay. He’s got a steady boyfriend, and frankly, I’m surprised he’s not had an affirmation yet. His boyfriend’s a doll, and in every way NOT what I describe as the “problem” of homosexuality…although he has his own personal sets of flaws, they’re nothing to do with his sexual preference. I don’t think EVERY homosexual person is like this, I’ve just found that in the many friendships I’ve had with homosexuals, the attitude follows that pattern I mentioned. Is it a crime? No. Anyhow…here’s where the difference is. IF his boyfriend “proposed” to him, and he came around to tell us, and babble about his boyfriend, and how they’re doing the affirmation…that’s not what I’m talking about. That’s perfectly fine, and I’m excited for him. Don’t mistake me…I don’t shun him, I just get very turned off by the fact that the ONLY conversation he ever has with us is about his sexual preference.
But his need to say “I’m gay” every conversation, and not bring P. (his boyfriend) into the chat…he doesn’t talk about the boyfriend at all, in fact, unless WE ask him about him…that’s not love, and that’s not “newlywed.” That’s leaning towards the chip. He knows my father is itchy around homosexuals. So he tests it. He wants to force my father to change…so he uses heavy-handed methods.
I guess the whole point I was TRYING to make is that while heterosexuals who are “gay bashers,” of which I am not a member…are guilty of ignorance…
Homosexuals (many of them, from my experience…though as always there are exceptions) tend to lean towards being guilty of heavy-handedness. Laying it on with a sledgehammer.
THAT is why there is no innocent here. I’m not saying that they’re solely to blame. By no means are they. But they are not blameless. Nobody is completely innocent.
The biggest incident, I guess, is the sense of fun a homosexual can often have with regards to his/her preference. They catch on that someone is homophobic, and they’ll hone in on them. By doing that, they in a sense have caused that other person to dislike them more. The only way that homophobe will ever learn NOT to be a homophobe is if the person meets homosexual people, gets to know them as PEOPLE first and not as a category. Eventually, when they’re friends, the homosexual tells them the preference. By then, the homophobe is forced to see that the person’s NOT trying to come on to them.
That’s why the parades are counter-productive. They’re rubbing the fear into the scared person’s faces. So the frightened person lashes out.
Take a tiger and corner it. The tiger’s done nothing to deserve being cornered, save be afraid of the human coming toward it. The human might have the best of intentions. The human might want just to give the tiger some meat. But the tiger’s started out afraid. The stigma IS there, that humans kill. So he’s afraid. He’s backed into a corner. If the human comes closer, it will jump and attack.
This makes the tiger wrong for attacking, because the tiger didn’t know if THAT human was going to kill them. The tiger assumed that the human would kill him.
But the human could have been wiser, could have backed off, dropping a little meat. The next night, there’s more meat to be left. Day after day, more and more meat, until finally, the tiger sits by the human’s side, without lashing out.
Gay pride parades, for one, and other “affirmation” displays (I don’t mean parties, clubs, or events. I mean displays, when it’s a march, or a demonstration) are like the human walking right up to the cornered tiger without setting the meat out first.
It’s not FAIR that the human has to put out the meat, first. I agree. But the problem is that the stigma is there already, so if there’s going to be hope to overcome it, the meat must be lain out.
Nor was it FAIR that the Jews had to leave their homes during the diaspora, but they did it for peace and safety. It’s not FAIR that the Jews have to go out of their ways to show that they’re not money-grubbing misers, but they do, so that the less-knowledgeable Christians can learn to understand them.
It’s not FAIR that blacks have to go out of their way to make themselves more “caucasian” in speech and mannerisms, and less African, to be able to be fully accepted as equals in white society, but it’s done by many, for the hopes that we will see they are not thieves, liars, and worse.
The point is: Though it’s not FAIR that these bends have to be made by the already bent, those bends are the only way to get through to a mind that’s very closed. Sledgehammers never work.
I fit into ONE of those categories of minorities that I listed above. We all have our prejudices? Yes. Agreed, there. I’m prejudiced against hyper-fanatics of any religion.
You know? The ones who see one side of the story, but never EVER look to the other side, for fear that they might be wrong.
Forgiven for the unintentional insult, by the by.
Hey you money-grubbing miser!! Can ya float me a loan? 
byteoart
But have you ever felt that someone might judge you as being inherently wrong simply because you have a boyfriend? That still happens to those who are gay. So, yes, you are advertising your sexuality simply by introducing your boyfriend.
And I’ve not had any of my friends tell me that their sexuality is a preference.
Then might I be so bold as to suggest that you’re going about it all wrong?
Again with that preference word. . .
That being the case, then they are going about it all wrong.
And your opinion will be given the thought that it so richly deserves.
It’s not a preference, for one thing.
Now, where would the fun be in that?
Waste
Flick Lives!
Ok, so YOU had an experience with someone who was like this…thus “Most gays…”?
I have had a lot of gay friends, aquaintences, family members, etc… and I’ve NEVER seen this behavior. EVER. There went your theory out the window.
I’ve also never met a gay who had anything against straight people.
I do have a lot of fond memories of, say, renting movies with a gay friend and carrying on about which actor has the cutest butt, or baking a cake together…
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“Meat flaps, yellow!” - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
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byteoart said
Just what the hell is this supposed to mean and how does it help less-knowledgeable Christians understand anything? It seems to me that you don’t realize how biased you really are.
BTW, When my husband and I walked around hand in hand at a Gay Pride rally in a park … with thousands of gay people, we encountered exactly ZERO negative anything for being straight. (we were there with a gay family member, in case you were going to ask)
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Teeming Millions: http://fathom.org/teemingmillions
“Meat flaps, yellow!” - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
OH GOSH, I FELT SO CHOKED BY POLITICAL CORECTNESS, I JUST HAD TO SPEAK OUT…
HATRED HMM… HOMOPHOPIA… HMM
OKAY SIT DOWN EVERYBODY, PULL UP A CHAIR, AND LEARN SOMETHING. FIRST OF ALL I’LL ADMIT, I DISLIKE HOMOSEXUALS, GREATLY, AND ALL OF YOU WHO SAY ITS BECAUSE I HARBOR SOME SECRET TWANGS OF GAY LOVE, DESERVE TO SPEND THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, FACED WITH YOUR OWN IGNORANCE, AND LACK OF UNDERSTANDING IN THIS SITUATION.
HOMOPHOBIA IS A WORD, CREATED, AND PROPIGATED BY HOMOSEXUALS <GASP> AND WHY YOU ASK? TO MAKE THE DISLIKE OF A TYPE OR GROUP OF PEOPLE A DSM ENTRY, AND THEREFORE A SICKNESS. TO HAVE THE CHOICE OF WHO YOU CHOOSE FOR YOUR ASSOCIATES, AND WHOM YOU DECIDE YOU DON’T LIKE, DEPENDING ON WHO YOU DON’T LIKE, MIGHT REQUIRE THERAPY.<SEE MY EYES ROLL>
DO CLIQUISH WOMEN REQUIRE THERAPY? DO MEN WHO CHOOSE TO WATCH SPORTS WITH OTHER FRIENDS REQUIRE THERAPY? DOES ANY HUMAN WHO EXCERCISES THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE WHOM THEY LIKE OR DON’T, NEED THERAPY?
THAT’S WHAT HOMOSEXUALS WOULD HAVE YOU THINK… BY AND IN LARGE PART DUE TO THE FEW WHO DECIDE TO BE “OUT AND LOUD”.
THERE IS A LARGE PART, I’D VENTURE TO SAY, MOST OF THE U.S., WHEN POLLED ADMITS THEY DO NOT LIKE HOMOSEXUALS. YET WHEN ASKED ON CAMERA IN FRONT OF MEDIA STAGE, THEY ARE JUST THE BEST OF FRIENDS WITH ALL GAYS.
LIE TO EACH OTHER, BUT CANT LIE TO OURSELVES, THEY MAKE US SQUIRM, THEY MAKE US UNCOMFORTABLE, WE DEAL WITH THEM ONLY CAUSE WE HAVE BEEN TOLD TO, HAVE TO. WE TELL OUR CHILDREN, ITS WRONG… WHY? WELL CAUSE WE DON’T WANNA SAY, CAUSE I JUST DON’T LIKE EM, SO WE USE THE BIBLE TO SAY ‘GOD” DOESN’T LIKE THEM.
IS THERE ONE OTHER AMONGST YOU ALL WHO WONT BE A COWARD, AND WILL AGREE WITH ME?
BETTER YET… CAN I GET AN AMEN FROM ANYONE WHO LIVES IN SODOM OR GAMORA??
OH YEAH THAT’S RIGHT, YOU WERE ALL BLASTED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET….BY AN ANGRY GOD.
I MAY AT SOME POINT GO FURTHER IN THIS ARGUMENT, BUT FOR NOW… I’VE LIT THE FUSE… WHO WILL PLAY WITH ME?
HOT POTATO?
TO HAVE WORKED FOR THE GOVERNMENT WAS NO WORK AT ALL,TO REFORM AND REBUILD THE GOVERNMENT, THEREIN LIES THE CHALLENGE.
I lived in a mostly gay neighborhood for 3 years and my experience with “gay attitude” was this. Most gays aren’t sure how you are going to react to them. THe aren’t sure if you are going to hate them or be OK with them, so they treat you a littlle stand-offish.
This can come across as being a little hostile or aloof. IT is merely caution created by some bad experiences.
My gay racquetball partner didn’t feel comfortable telling me that she was gay for 3 months! But I don’t blame her. It was not because she had a chip on her shoulder. She was just cautious.