Homophobic hatred

Great Debates
141

Robbnn: Fair enough. Marriage is a benefit. Why, then, should this benefit not be extended to gays and lesbians? And society gives this particular benefit to people like Phil who does not have children. So it’s not strictly for the sake of legal issues concerning children.

In regards barring people from living where they choose, it happens all of the time. If you truly believe that an openly gay couple who wanted to rent an apartment from a homophobic landlord could do so, then you need to pay more attention to the world around you.

My

I mis-spoke. To try again: If you, as a gay man (yeah, yeah, I know, but play along with me here), were to live in a committed partnership with another gay man for his entire life, upon his death you may or may not be entitled to those portions of his estate that he wanted you to have. Even if he put it all down in a will, notarized and everything. The reason for that would be due to his surviving relatives. Even if his surviving relatives had shunned him for his homosexuality, and refused to have anything to do with him because of it.

Another one: Your life partner has a heart attack and goes to the hospital. You, as no more than his lifelong partner, would not be allowed to act as his surrogate. Despite the fact that the two of you have lived a loving, committed relationship for years. And his family (remember them?) will not be seen in the same building with him.

I dunno about you, but I find the above to be just a couple of pretty damned compelling reasons to recognize gay marriage.

And why, exactly, do you think that someone should be working simply because there are no children at home? In many cases, the non-working partner simply does not want to work, and it is not necessary due to the amount of money made by the working partner. So, yes, there sometimes is a reason why that partner isn’t working.

And yeah, it is a strawman. Plus, as Phil already pointed out, marriage is considered a right in todays society, and if you really want to subject to a vote the rights of some, just wait until I want to subject to a vote rights that you consider sacrosanct.

Also, you said:

Who is it that says that homosexuality is wrong? There will be a follow up question, but I would very much like to know your answer to this question first.

You can be fired simply for being gay in almost any position you might care to name. Any position , with any company. There are exceptions, but they are rare.

And if Fred, in your instance, were to be fired for hitting on Bubba, would Frank also be fired for hitting on Lurlene? After all, it’s the behavior that is being punished, right? As far as flaming? Where, pray tell, do you buy your farming equipment?

But what if Dinah is spiteful and vindictive? And tells her children that their father doesn’t love them? And uses her ex-husbands sexuality as a weapon against him in court? Whereas Fred & Joe are ideal parents in every way? They don’t make snide remarks about Dinah, and her tendency to drink too much. Or the fact that she is seeing not one, not two, but three different members of the local Hell’s Angels chapter?

Sometimes, the gay parent is the better parent, is what I’m saying. So why should their sexuality come into play at all?

Waste
Flick Lives!

142

Thanks, felice. I had a post all ready to go, but the board was down for a while this afternoon. Sigh.

But you summed up my position very well. Two addition, though:

Robynn mentioned

It’s not legal to exceed the speed limit in Florida, either. But people do it. It’s not legal to discriminate in the workplace on the bases of sex, age, race, or disability, either, and it still happens. It sucks.

Also, Robynn, you asked if people were fired

Apart from the fact that sexual advances toward a customer are inappropriate in any case, what “gay behavior” do you consider worth firing someone over? Obviously it depends on the business in question. There are plenty of places where my long hair would have been cause for termination. Or my earrings. Or my SO’s (myriad) piercings. But that’s store policy. Again, apart from sexual behavior, I can’t think of a single type of behavior specific to gays that would get a homosexual fired. Can you provide more specifics?

I’ve known several people run out of jobs for being gay. Not for acting gay, but simply because their coworkers knew of their sexual orientations and assumed every action they took was related to being gay. In one job I held, people found out I had my ears pierced and started making some extremely rude jokes (for the entire two-year duration of my employment). Sure, it was a conservative area, but I shudder to think how I would have been treated had they not known I was hetero.

-andros-

143

And by checking the times of my post and Waste’s, we can see how long it takes me to type!

Robynn, I apologize if it seems we’re ganging up on you. I for one am genuinely curious about your positions, and I believe that to be the same for the other posters here. Please don’t feel attacked.

-andros-

144

Quote: “You are not allowed to take advantage of your partner’s benefits through his or her job (with certain exceptions).” Is there a reason why that partner isn’t working themselves? My wife is on my insurance because she stays home to raise the kids. If we had no kids, she’d be working and have her own policy.
I work for an airline, and free flight benefits are extended to employees, thier spouses, children under 18, and parents. Some of my fellow employees have up to 10 people who may fly for free. My parents have since passed away, so I have no one who I can apply this benefit to. I have approached the vice-pres of operations and the director of stations about adding SO benefits to our flight priveleges, and only gotten a “we’ll look at it” as a reply. the only response I’ve gotten from middle management when I ask if it’s going to happen is, the company feels that if they offer these benefits we’ll rise up and demand a full benefit package for our domestic partners. IMHO it’s not gonna happen and I’m going to work for another airline that extends this privelege. I’m not thrilled at this prospect, as I enjoy my job, work with wonderful people, and except for not being able to fly with my SO I really think I work for a great company that is going to grow to become something great. :frowning:

145

Robynn, I think it’s also important to note that a lot of gay couples DO have children. Melissa Ethridge and her partner just announced that David Crosby is the father of their children. Artificial insemniation, adoption, children from prior relationships (need an example? Ross’s ex-wife on “Friends”.) So gay couples need marriage for the sake of their children just as much as straight couples do. And as far as the benefits go, I now have amazing benefits, as I am a state employee. Dental, vision, medical, I’m set. However, a year ago I had no medical insurance, even though I was working 40+ hours a week as a temp. I’ve also worked at places where the medical insurance they offer has such an impossible co-pay, it wasn’t worth going. I had x-rays run on my knees a year and a half ago, and was able to pay it off YESTERDAY. So benefits are a pretty big deal if you aren’t making 30K+ a year.

Here’s an interesting tid-bit, my best friend in high school was gay, and went to donate blood at the Red Cross. They give you a questionaire form to fill out, and he checked that he had had sex with someone of his own gender. His services as a blood donor was “not required,” because of this, even though he had only recently come out, and had only slept with his boyfriend. Both of them had an HIV test before they slept together, and they were safe. However, my friend had gone to Red Cross with another friend, who had slept with prositutes, and done all sorts of drugs, and they let him donate. I understand the logic behind it, but you’d think with hetrosexual women being the most rapidly growing demographic, that they’d be more apt to target THEM. Any thoughts?

146

Howdy. No, I don’t feel ganged up on. I know where I am, and actually, I’ve been very impressed with the responses. I tend not to read anger into posts even if it’s there, but I don’t think any anger has been expressed (and I’m surprised. This is an emotional topic for good reason).

Really, there are two discussions going on. Is homosexuality wrong and should homosexuals be allowed to marry. There are many christians who answer both questions as yes. It’s wrong, but they should be allowed to marry. Tony Campollo is one (I’m pretty sure) and I agree with him on most things…

I do believe in a live and let live kind of thing. With a few exceptions, no one should be forced to follow convictions they don’t possess. Personally, I think I’m being rather liberal about wanting it put to a vote. I’ll win this year, and maybe next, but within the next 5 years it will be legal no matter how I vote.

And as a result, I think the world will change. I think homosexual experimentation will go way, way up. As it becomes more accepted, kids and adults will play with it. I probably would have before I was a Christian. But then back then I wasn’t half as moral as most of you, so maybe I’m wrong. I can’t prove that, so maybe it’s a straw man. I don’t think so, though. Another response might be: well, so what? If people want to, that’s their business. And so it is. But from my belief that sex belongs solely in a marriage for “righteous” reasons, I think the world will suffer. I know many of you are fed up with Christians, but our stance against sin is not to lord it over anyone, but our true concern and compassion that people don’t hurt themselves. The Bible warns of the time when people “do what’s right in their own eyes, for that way leads to death.” I don’t intend to preach, but I do want you to know I stand where I do because I care for you, not because I hate you.

As for the rest: where you live and where you work should be up to you (though why you’d want to live under a jerk of a landlord I don’t know). If someone jerks you around, sue. Our current laws cover that. It’s covered under general discrimination (“creed” would be my designation for it). As for being fired from work, I’ve stated before that behavior rules should apply equally to homo- or hetero-. If Joe hits on Donna, dump him.

Oh, and as for the giving blood thing: I’m the wrong guy to ask. In my BC days I dated a Camaroon girl. For most HIV risks it’s 7-8 years. For the Camaroon variant it is for life (or was last time I tried to give blood). I don’t begrudge them at all. If there is ANY risk, don’t give blood. It isn’t worth it. Sleeping with prostitutes or illicate drug use has an 8 year statute on it. If your friend was able to give under those conditions before the 8 years was up, either someone wasn’t doing their job or your friend lied to them.

Peace and thank you.

147

Robbnn, I feel like I ought to give my apologies also. This is an issue that for a variety of reasons I’ve come to feel strongly about, and I do tend to get, well, vehement in my posts. I’m glad you didn’t take it as flaming you, but that does not remove the onus of my needing to apologize.

148

Actually, I have no problem with you feeling the way that you do. Provided you don’t try and force anyone to live their lives by your personal moral code. To your credit, you don’t seem to advocating that.

However, I simply have to do this:

Was there any irony in you at all as you were posting that? Because my co-workers just wondered what in hell I was laughing at.

Waste
Flick Lives!

149

quote:
Oh, and as for the giving blood thing: I’m the wrong guy to ask. In my BC days I dated
a Camaroon girl. For most HIV risks it’s 7-8 years. For the Camaroon variant it is for life (or was last time I tried to give blood). I don’t begrudge them at all. If there is ANY risk, don’t give blood. It isn’t worth it. Sleeping with prostitutes or illicate drug use has an 8 year statute on it. If your friend was able to give under those conditions before the 8 years was up, either someone wasn’t doing their job or your friend lied to them.

Oh, the prostitute guy wasn’t MY friend. He was friend-of-a-friend. And I have no doubt that given what you say, he probably lied. Feh.

As for the rest of your post, it is apprechiated. I believe it is harmful, however, to label ANY behavior as “wrong.” God is the only one who knows what right and wrong is, and the rest of us just pretend. We can’t know what the Big Guy truely thinks, we have scriptures written two thousand years ago by some priest, not a directive from God. Jesus was about love and acceptance, but about right and wrong. It personally angers me when people use the name Jesus to justify hatred of any kind.

“‘Come hither, my boy, tell me what thou seest there?’
‘A fool tangled in a religious snare.’” William Blake

150

Actually, you’re completely wrong. See the front page of the Cleveland Plain Dealer this morning. Ohio Governor Richard Celeste had written gay employees into the rules governing state workers and discrimination, but he set it to expire after a certain amount of time, and current Gov. Bob Taft refused to renew it. As of this morning, Ohio employees can be fired for being gay and have no legal recourse.

“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather