Homosex and Abort as matters of Choice

The BBQ Pit
61

How can you blame me for not reading in advance a thread that was open today as a spin-off of this thread that I opened four days ago?

If you insist.

Too cryptic, sorry.

Maybe it’s just me. I don’t like to see politicians pointing fingers at people and saying, “There’s a Jew” or “There’s a Lesbian”. I find it creepy. Besides, I categorically oppose the notion that anyone can be characterized on the basis of sexual preferences. Julius Ceazar was a lover of Bythinian king in his youth, but he was not a homosexual. First and foremost he was Julius Ceazar. Mary Cheney may have a lesbian partner, but first and foremost she is Mary Cheney. That’s what she is in the eyes of God and/or Evolution, not just a lesbian. If Kerry’d say, “Mary Cheney has a lesbian partner”, I’d be OK with that. When he labeled her as a lesbian, I found it wrong. And I don’t think I have secret aversion to homosex. If Kerry would jab his finger at me and said, “Look, everybody, there’s Iskander, who is straight” I’d get angry and yell back, “Why don’t you go fuck yourself, Sen. Kerry!” But may be it’s just me.

What shall I say? It’s your choice!

62

When have you become conscious of your sexual preferences? Why do you think that I ‘belittle’ you by suggesting that the choice was involved? Why do you think that choosing homosex is indecent? What about all the bi-sexual people, who fluctuate in their practices, are they ‘indecent’ and/or ‘inhuman’?

63

Where do we begin?

Simon LeVay’s 1991 study of the differences in the size of the hypothalamus in the cadavers of self-identified homosexual men, heterosexual men, and women?

The twin study, in 1991, that showed that identical twins were well more than twice as likely to both be homosexual than fraternal twins, who in turn were more than twice as likely as adoptive brothers of the same age?

The well-documented fact of homosexuality in the animal kingdom.

The Dean Hamer study of chromosomes?

The words of modern psychologists, specifically the American Psychological Association:

The experiences of me and millions of men like me?

And why do I think that none of this – not the statements of every reputable psychological and psychiatric association in the world, of neurologists, of geneticists, of testimony from gay men and lesbians – will make the slightest dent in your way of thinking?

:frowning:

64

It is belittling to suggest you know our minds better than we do.

Well there’s a strawman if I’ve ever seen one. Sexual orientation can be seen as a continuum. If Dean Hamer is correct in his X-chromosome theory, then not one gene is involved, but many. That allows for a subtle tinting of sexual orientation, from straight to gay, and every grey shade in between.

It has nothing to do with choice. I’ve met bisexuals who’ve told me the sex of their partner doesn’t matter at all, and I’ve met those who say their interests shift back and forth over time, but I have yet to meet a bisexual who wakes up one morning and decides, “I think I’ll like guys today.”

65

It is not a preference, it is an orientation. A preference is enjoying being a bottom or top, to be a tad crass, or to like oral. One’s sexual orientation is not a preference, it does not change, it cannot be chosen and it cannot be altered.

Because you are denying the fact that I’m the one who’s an expert on me, not you. Because you’re dictating to me a “reality” that does not match the reality I live with each and every day. And because your bullshit gives fuel to the scum who would strip me of my rights and liberties, throw me in a mental institution and try to electro-shock the fag right out of me.

First of all, stop using the word “homosex.” It’s stupid and arrogant.

And second of all, I don’t think it’s indecent. It’s just not possible. You are who you are, and there is not one shred of choice involved, other than whether you will admit reality or not.

Bisexuals are a large swath of the sexual orientation continuum, which ranges from folks who are 100% homosexual to folks who are mostly homosexual to folks who are pretty much totally bisexual to folks who are mostly straight to those sad souls who are 100% heterosexual.

66

I’m not sure whether this is true. Take depression, from which I suffer. I do not know what causes me to be that way, although I have lived with myself for many years. I don’t know whether it’s genetic or whether the most important factor in causing it is the influence of my parents and wider social factors. Neither do I know whether it is best treated by drugs or by talking about it with the right sort of person. And I have been an expert on this for around 40 years.

I’m not saying that homosexual orientation and depression are equivalent or directly comparable. But I do believe that we might benefit from acknowledging that the causes of both are little understood.

67

Please substitute the following for the first sentence:

“However true this may be, I’m not sure that it is as significant as it might appear at first glance.” and delete “I’m not sure whether this is true”.

68

That was way too funny.

69

I dunno. Why do you think so, indeed?

70

A non-answer from the non-intellect. Not surprising.

71

I had no intention to dictate anyone anything, quite the contrary. I repeated many times about sacred rights of people to do what they wish, sexually and otherwise.

Is that what you are really afraid of? I know you have serious reasons to feel that way.

You said that I was assaulting your decency.

72

To assert that being gay is a choice is to assert a LIE about me. I am a gay man. I KNOW that I did not choose to be gay, so stop misrepresenting me.

The gay-haters, by and large, base their entire agenda of evil on their “fact” that being gay is a choice. So you are, in fact, supporting the anti-gay, the bigot argument.

You are not gay. You can never understand what it is to be gay. So stop discussing things you can never understand.

73

No, I won’t take depression. Depression is an illness, homosexuality is not. Depression can also be treated with medicines, and there is no “treatment” for homosexuality, since it is not something that can be “cured.”

What causes homosexuality doesn’t matter. The point is that it exists and it cannot be changed and it shouldn’t be considered immoral, abnormal or wrong.

74

I’ve been picking up this vibe more and more. It surprises me that people are not interested to know “Why?”. It’s a very normal human desire, especially among intelligent young people.

The resistance to finding out would appear to be at least in part politically motivated.

75

If we find some sort of genetic determiner for homosexuality, then the Christian radicals and our other enemies will have a means to hunt us down and destroy us, should they ever have the means to. It would also allow them to pre-identify potentially gay children prior to birth and have them aborted.

I wouldn’t trust that sort of knowledge in my enemy’s hands no matter what benefits there may be to it.

76

Fair enough, I can understand that. But the genetic, biological, neurological and evolutionary-psychological studies that have thus far been done are very limited and very inconclusive. I honestly wonder if people really want to know.

It’s in this context, by the way, that I challenged your use of the word “expert”. If you don’t really care about causation, then you can hardly credibly claim to be an expert in any but a purely subjective way.

77

I am an expert on the only issue that matters: IT IS NOT A CHOICE. I know that it is not a choice. I know I never chose it, and that I never would.

78

:rolleyes: Hey dipshit - that’s why I also mentioned the umpteen billion threads that have been started on this subject on the SDMB. You’re a big boy, use the search function. That’s what your $14.95 was spent on.

I’d also suggest that when you have posters that cover the political spectrum all saying that you don’t make sense, that maybe you should step back and reevaluate your mode of communication.

79

That certainly paints a climate of fear, if I ever saw one. Believe me, I understand where you are coming from. There certainly are people that if the possibility of choice in sexual matters is accepted, would paint all homosexuals as evil for making their choice, and would even advocate re-education of homosexual people, more or less coercive. So I understand how the prospect of acceptance of homosexuality as an act of God or Nature may promise security for you. That’s what I was referring to when I said that homosexuals are ‘trading their rights for protection’. But I still think it’s wrong to do that.

Look at it that way: what do both Left and Right have in common on their position on homosexuality? Radical Democrats insist that you don’t have a choice about your sexual life. Radical Republicans insist that you shouldn’t have a choice about your sexual orientation. Aren’t those two positions really two sides of the same coin? As a Human Being, as an Individual, aren’t you screwed either way?

What’s wrong with granting people absolute freedom of choice in sexual matters, the same we grant in all matters of conscience? We hold true that nobody is born atheist or confirmed believer. Why can’t we grant people the same freedom in sexual realm?

Some gave me references to scientific research supporting that sexual preferences are genetic or biological and blamed me for ignoring that science. But science is ambivalent. The problem I have with the whole scientific approach that there surely is another side peddling their own ‘scientific findings’ proving exactly the opposite. Nazis appealed to science and so did Communists. For example, homosexuals are still persecuted in Communist Cuba strictly on scientific basis. Why can’t we leave science out of this? Why do we have to split genes and chromosomes? Why can’t we restore the benevolent tolerance that the ancients practiced?

80

No, you don’t, you pathetic, ignorant gay basher. Because that’s what you’re doing, you’re gay bashing, whether you intend to or not. To say that one’s sexuality is a choice is tantamount to an act of violence against gays and lesbians, because it supports the notion that is a precursor to such acts.

HOMOSEXUALS DO NOT CHOOSE TO BE GAY!!! STOP SAYING THAT WE CHOOSE IT!! I know that I did not choose to be gay, so do not fucking call me a liar!

We aren’t trading anything, we’re BEING HONEST.

Or are you calling me a liar?

Are you calling me a liar when I say I don’t choose to be gay?

If you answer any fucking question (yeah, right, you dodge questions and responses left and right, because you’re a coward), answer that one: ARE YOU CALLING ME A LIAR???

The issue is sexual orientation, not sexual life. I could fuck anyone I want (within reason, of course), but it wouldn’t make me any less gay if I did.

I’m screwed when ignorant twits like you denigrate my humanity and call me a liar.

HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT A PREFERENCE!!!

And such evidence has already been proferred in this thread, but being an ignonorant putz, you’ve ignored it.

You also choose to ignore the testimony of the only people here who know a god damn thing about homosexuality – every homosexual at the SDMB. We’re all saying the same thing, so why are you calling us liars???

Why can’t you shut the fuck up and stop making life harder for innocent homosexuals everywhere? Why can’t you stop fueling the fires of hate that kill scores of homosexuals every year?

And why can’t you just admit that I, not you, am the only expert on whether I chose to be a homosexual, and that by saying that it’s a choice you’re denigrating me, calling me a liar and arrogantly dictating to me a reality I know to be false?