OK - I certainly agree that marriage confers benefits not currently available otherwise; I just wanted to make sure that the list was accurate.
I’ll try to find that cite next week, when I get back from out of town. I can’t remember if it was a website, a book or something I read for a term paper.
Happy New Year, Bricker. I much prefer being on the same side.
He did explain it better than you, in the sense that the various logical fallacies, appeals to emotion, changes of subject, etc were somewhat better concealed in Card’s version of the argument than in yours.
Many towns also have rules against whistling while walking down the street, shooting Yeti from horseback, or taking baths while dressed like President Fillmore. Was this law ENFORCED, or is it just some ancient, silly old law?
I find it kind of hard to believe this town had no rooming houses, no students renting a house, nobody staying in anyone’s spare bedroom.
There is simply no way to interpret this quote as anything other than a flat rejection of the notion that the state is to be entrusted with the task of guiding us down “the right path”:
I just can’t take such a nebulous and subjective claim seriously.
Not only enforced against homosexuals. Another case.
Cohabitation laws are often used in other insidious ways, but is also used against heterosexuals. Utah, for instance doesn’t allow adoption for people who are cohabitating. I believe Arizona also forbids adoption by cohabitating adults.
I think part of the problem with arguments such as these is the separation of church and state. (Many of) We Christians cannot separate our religious beliefs from the world, so we vote our religious convictions in regards to civil matters. And in this case (and many like it), it’s a bit like oil and water. The two don’t mix too well.
But I had an epiphany during worship service today. Though I’ve believed it in my heart forever, it only resided in my heart, and not my head. I haven’t been able to articulate it until now.
To cast judgment on others based upon your own interpretation of the Bible is prideful.
What this means to me is that we Christians need only one verse to guide us in how we treat other people:
Luke 10 27He answered: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
So this is the whole bible, condensed down into one sentence:
Love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love others as you would love yourself.
Then what’s the REST of the Bible for? What about all that gobbledy gook about sin, 10 commandments, punishment, forgiveness, and thees and thous and such? Well, the Bible is, well… **THE ** BIBLE. It is an instruction manual for each of us in how **WE ** should live **OUR ** lives. It’s not an instruction manual on how **OTHERS ** should live **THEIR ** lives. In fact, if you believe in the Bible, then you are commanded not to judge others. Each of us must interpret the Bible individually. And it is very likely that each and every one of us will interpret the Bible differently. And does it really matter that we interpret the Bible differently? I mean, should it really matter to me if someone through interpreting the bible says, “pre-marital sex in and of itself is not sinful?” For them, this is correct. Who am I to read the scripture and cast my own opinion on their lives? It is not my place to judge. That would be prideful. All I am commanded to do, nay, ALLOWED to do! is to love them as I love myself.
What about “saving” people? Testifying and trying to convert non-believers? Look at the crusades and the inquisition for that answer. Look at that guy on the street corner whacking the bible over people’s heads. He believes that if he only saves one soul, he has done his purpose. But how many people will he turn aside saving that one soul? Look at the affect that Christian dogma has had even on even the members of this message board! When it turns good Christians like spectrum to use the word “hate” towards a fellow Christian, it’s no wonder people think that Christianity is evil. So how do we convert? We show love first.
Now, is it wrong to help people to understand the Bible? No, because the Bible has been translated so many times, and the cultures that wrote and compiled the Bible no longer exist. There is probably no book more full of metaphor and innuendo than Song of Solomon. I went to a Song of Solomon conference and the guy went through each and every sentence in that book and explained each word and what it meant in context during the time of Solomon. We don’t think of pomegranates as sexual. But it was positively scandalous in Solomon’s time. So we should use those people that have taken the time to interpret the Bible. How do we trust all of them, especially when there are so many conflicting views? We have to make that judgment for ourselves. But we must not FORCE our interpretation on others. They must come **to ** US or other interpreters and ask what we think about something. But in order for us to be worthy of that kind of leadership and counseling, before they will feel comfortable coming to us for advice, we must exhibit Jesus most sacred commandment: Love God with all your heart, and love all people as you would love yourself. Love people FIRST, THEN they will see God living inside us, and they will come to US.
This I believe is why Jesus came to Earth. This is his example. And this is the essence which guides my ministry, or will in the future.
Now, how does this affect the way in which I vote?
Maybe I should look to God for an example. He HATES sin, more than I do abortion, and certainly more than I dislike the “sin” of homosexuality. But he allows sin, and much worse sin than homosexuality. In fact he gave us the methods to commit sin.¹ So, is it not without possibility that Jesus would allow homosexuals the right to marry, in civil union? (I doubt that he would accept their union in a religious manner though.) I mean, even if homosexuality and same sex marriage DIRECTLY negatively affected society (Which is worse than I think it will do.) who am I to try to keep them from changing the world? It’s not my world. God didn’t keep Eve and Adam from eating of the fruit. Their affect on the world was infinitely worse for the people of Earth than homosexuality. The fact is, even heathens, even pagans, even witches (and I’m finding out that even so called “satanists”) want to be good. We must take that for granted. God put the desire to be good into the hearts of all mankind. The way each of us interprets what is good is special and personal. To try to force our belief about what is good will only cause conflict. The only judgements we should be allowed to make in the Bible are the 10 commandments. I will fight against murder, theft, adultury, etc. But anything else is abuse.
So believe it or not, I concede. You might even find me at the voting booths supporting candidates that are for same sex marriage². I still personally believe that homosexuality is wrong. But that is between you and your maker. I still feel that same sex marriage could help lead the world down a path that I feel is damaging. But that is between me and God. But to keep you from living your life the way you want would be wrong. I might still post my opinions on how I think that immorality will lead to societal damage, but it will come from a loving heart.
I’m still seriously opposed to abortion, BTW.
¹Kind of like voting for SSM would be for me.
²The fact is that other issues are more important to me than SSM. But it will no longer be a hot button issue for me. It will no longer affect the way in which I vote. That might not satisfy you so let me tell you this, if there are two candidates that are equal, except one is for SSM and the other is against SSM, I will vote for the guy that is FOR SSM.
He’s melting! He’s melting! 
And now to confess something…
I could almost agree, IF I then followed through with another position…
that Evangelical Christians gather our families, retreat to our churches & go Atlas Shrugged on the world.
But I don’t think we’re allowed. That’s partly why I doubt a PreTrib Rapture.
Well, prisoner, I think that’s just great. Go you.
Congrats, Prisoner. You’ve just demonstrated a valuable and increasingly rare quality that I hope I will never lose track of myself.
Prisoner, I follow your logic, and that is perhaps one of the greatest gifts you could have given anyone to bring in 2005.
I have one observation for you, and it’s one I think you’ll like. When Jesus propounded the two Greatest Commandments, according to Luke, the guy he was talking with asked who his neighbor was, and Jesus told the Parable of the Good Samaritan. What He closed it with is “Which of these three do you think was neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” The lawyer he was talking with said, “The one who showed compassion to him.” And Jesus answered, “Go and do as he did.”
Sure, you’ve got all the focus on sin in Scripture – but it seems to be to be a standard theme that sin is bad, not in and of itself, but because it keeps people from God, usually that it distracts them from Him. It was the Pharisees who suggested that sinners didn’t deserve to be able to encounter God – God Himself Incarnate went and sought them out, and forgave their sins. “Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more.”
All this focus on the issue of sin is, according to Lewis’s Screwtape Letters, a deceit to keep us from the important thing: God and His love. Don’t strive to avoid sin – strive to love God. And if you do that, you’ll find that loving your fellow man, and avoiding sin, come naturally. And you’ll find that his sins (whatever they may be) don’t bother you* – you have something more valuable, a love you need to share.
- With one exception – as He did, you will still get pissed off at people who use God’s Law in Jesus’s Name to do exactly what He condemned and not what He commanded. In all honesty, several of us had you pegged as one of them – and I thank God that you have shown you’re not.
Peace and a joyful 2005 to you and to all my brothers and sisters on this board!, regardless of race, creed, religion or its absence, color, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity (or however you say it), or whatever else we’ve thought up to divide us. God sees us otherwise than those divisions, and maybe we all ought to try looking as if with His eyes.
Hey-did an OP reverse his position in GD? That’s one of the signs of the Apocalypse, isn’t it? :eek:
Oh, and one point, regarding:
I think even the wildest-eyed liberal would balk at trying to force churches to perform SSM ceremonies. And I’m saying that as a pretty damned wild-eyed liberal …
Let me see if I have this right. You want, not my personal opinion on same sex marriage but my comments made by a fiction writer?
I’m from Hollywood and the music industry where so many of my associates just happen to be gay that I have to admit that only their talent is appreciated not where or with whom they sleep.
We now have a President who speaks to God and has been mandated to bring us all to Jesus Christ with his list of sins to be legislated. Well folks, this is pure bullshit! I am not a Christian nor am I gay but resent anyone trying to force any lifestyle choices on me or my children.
I could care less who my friends marry and only am concerned with my own marriage. Marriages don’t fail due to same sex marriages, they fail by a lack of honesty and keeping the vows made too hastily.
I’ve read a few Card books but obviously missed his opinions on marriage.
Congratulations, sir. That’s the second best thing to happen to me this year, and the new year is less than 13 hours old here. If you factor in larger ramifications, it beats the first thing. Christian that you are, I’ve no doubt you know John 3:16; John 3:17 bears just as much repeating.
Yesterday I was going to tell you how I watched my best friend get married to a man she loves dearly in a courthouse a few years ago. I saw the marriage license and the joy on her and her husband’s faces, and I know the joy they still have in each other. Since their marriage, they’ve grown more religious. All I’m asking for is an equivalent for homosexuals. Unfortunately, not only did at least some of the bills which passed this past November outlaw homosexual marriage; they also outlawed the possibility of civil unions. If I recall, the bill which passed in Ohio also made it legal to discriminate against homosexuals in terms of employment and housing.
In a few minutes, I’ll be seeing a man I love dearly. The ramifications of that statement for some people will vary greatly depending on whether they think I’m a man or woman. To me, that is a sign that the world is on the wrong path. Then again, knowing the options which were available to me 50 years ago and the ones which are available to me, including a career I love, perhaps you can see why I disagree with you about the state of the world.
Deliberately taking back what I said in the Pit,
Respectfully,
CJ
Prisoner, you are awesome.
The way you came to support SSM is much the same as mine. I’m not entirely convinced either way that it is or is not sinful, but I support it anyway.
The fact that you came to this realization shows that you are a very thoughtful person. It takes a good relationship with God to be able to come to conclusions like that despite what the churches tell you. I want to show your post to my parents to explain a good reason why I’m for SSM.
I’m glad that you didn’t let the vitriol of some people here discourage you from being open-minded.
Ditto. I’m glad that for once, I read through a thread to the very end. My first reaction was to throw some attacks of my own, and am glad I held back for a change.
Sandy,
First thing:
As I stated before, Card is an excellent writer. He feels very similarly about the issue as I do. Because he is a good writer, he can articulate the position more clearly than I. However, not good enough for this message board, apparantly.
Second thing (and this is most important):
The whole thing is moot because of Post #208.
Oh, and don’t nobody play Beethoven’s 5th. I’m liable to sick up. Which one of youz kidnapped and brainwashed me (Clockwork Orange style)?
You all just pray they don’t reverse the procedure on me like they did in the movie.
Oh, I wouldn’t worry about that too much. You see, you’re now on my side which means anyone who wants to get to you has to go through me. People very seldom succeed at doing that.
As for who kidnapped you, well, my brother-in-spirit and co-denominationalist, Polycarp, did refer to the Episcopalian mafia on this board once, but I will neither confirm nor deny knowledge of or membership in any such organization.
On a more serious note, I have crossed swords with people here and elsewhere and I have been insulted by my fellow Christians. What I have sometimes struggled to keep in mind is that, even when I disagree with them as strongly as I can, even when I’m boiling with rage and convinced that they are cowards, hypocrites, or just plain nasty, I am still obligated by my Christian faith, by Christ’s death and resurrection, to treat them with courtesy, respect, and love. As you caught a glimpse, I don’t always live up to that, but the obligation remains. When asked what the greatest Commandment was, Christ spoke of love, not judgement. So, to, must I, or I’m no better than a Pharisee, but then again, that’s just the opinion of a renegade Episcopalian.
Thank you for reading and understanding.
CJ